Listen: Ian Bremmer sits down with Jared Kushner, author of the White House's newly-unveiled Middle East peace plan. He has tough words for Palestinian leaders after they summarily rejected his proposal and he believes it's high time they stop playing "the victimhood card."
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TRANSCRIPT: Jared Kushner's 'Put Up or Shut Up' Peace Plan
Jared Kushner:
It's very hard to say that the Palestinian people are victims. If they're victims of anything, it's of having bad leadership.
Ian Bremmer:
How good is a 39-year-old former real estate guy from Jersey in brokering peace in the Middle East? We may be about to find out. Hello and welcome to the GZERO World Podcast, where you'll find extended versions of the interviews from my show on public television. And today on the show, I speak with Jared Kushner. That's President Trump's son-in-law, his senior advisor, and a man who's devised a money-before-politics approach to one of the world's most intractable political problems, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Let's get to it.
Announcer:
The GZERO World Podcast is brought to you by our founding sponsor, First Republic. First Republic, a private bank and wealth management company understands the value of service, safety and stability in today's uncertain world. Visit firstrepublic.com to learn more.
Ian Bremmer:
Jared Kushner, senior advisor to President Trump and architect of this peace plan. Good to see you, Jared.
Jared Kushner:
Good to be with you.
Ian Bremmer:
So jump right in, in terms of... we had Benny Gantz, we had Netanyahu on the stage with Trump. They are prepared to support 100% [of] this deal that you have been working on. [There] wasn't a Palestinian, of course, with an official representative within like 1,000 miles. One could argue it's a lot easier to come up with a plan if you're only talking to the Israelis and not the Palestinians. Fair?
Jared Kushner:
Yes and no. I mean, I think that it was very, very hard to get the Israelis to agree to several things that they've never agreed to even discuss before. Look, this process-
Ian Bremmer:
What was hardest in that process?
Jared Kushner:
The map. Getting them to look at a map and try to negotiate a map. There's never been a map that's been official and there's never been a map that Israel's agreed to. And look, I was in the real estate business. It's very, very hard based on where things lie today in 2020 to get a map where you could have a contiguous Palestinian state, and we were able to accomplish that.
Ian Bremmer:
70% of the West Bank territory, the Jordan Valley considered by the Palestinians, the breadbasket of their territory will be under Israeli sovereignty. They're given more land in the south of Israel, largely desert. That gets them to about 88% of previous 1967 territories. The Palestinians would say this is a deal that was made for the Israelis to accept and for the Palestinians to reject. How do you respond to that?
Jared Kushner:
So my sense is this is the first real offer that they've ever had. It's a real offer. It has details. It has a map. And Israel's agreeing to a two-state solution and a map. So if they don't like certain aspects of it, go to the table and negotiate. You don't like where the lines are drawn, say I want to move this here. Look, there's two basic issues and they've been conflated. You have an issue between the Israelis and the Palestinians, which is a territorial dispute and a security dispute. The territorial dispute comes from the fact that Israel was attacked three times and won all three defensive wars.
Jared Kushner:
Israel's shown that they'll give land back for peace. They did it with Egypt before and they've made peace with Jordan. So Israel's shown that they're willing to do that. Then there's the security issue. Why is Israel so concerned with security? Well, because the Palestinians have a big track record of allowing terrorists to exist in their territories and use that safe haven to launch attacks on Israelis. So Israel's not going to tolerate that or make a deal that makes their people less secure. A territorial dispute is kind of arbitrary in regards.
Jared Kushner:
It's not based on historical basis or rights. It's based on where do you draw the line.
Ian Bremmer:
I mean, a big piece of this, and well before you put this plan out this week, you actually had the Bahrain economic initiative talking about $50 billion over 10 years, not charity, investment. And some commitments have been made, mostly soft commitments, not hard commitments. If you're the Palestinians today, you hear the $50 billion number, what makes you believe that that's actually real?
Jared Kushner:
I operate in the real world, and again, we're pragmatist and I think this administration has shown that we show up, we take unconventional approaches and we get things done. So we can't tolerate when the Palestinians take irrational positions. So where's the money? Well, what have you done to get the money? I do have soft commitments from people, but it's subject to two things. First is that there needs to be a peace deal. Nobody's going to put more good money after bad money. People have been pumping money into this thing for years.
Jared Kushner:
And the good news is we have 25 years of showing how money could be wasted, stolen and misappropriated. What the basic theme of the conference was all of the international business community and the Arab neighbors came together and said, we want to help the Palestinian people. But there are two problems. One, we can't invest in a place where there's no stability, and that's just a basic function of investment. We need to know that we're free of terror. We can't be moving our people in and investing in infrastructure and investing in capital expenditures.
Jared Kushner:
Everything's going to get blown up and there'll be terrorism. Okay? The second thing they said is we can't invest in a place where there's no governance. So if you look at the West Bank right now, there's no fair judiciary. There's no property rights. There's there's no freedom of speech. There's no respect for human rights. So-
Ian Bremmer:
And these are all conditions that you've written in the plan that the Palestinians don't get statehood, then they don't get the money unless they actually hit those hurdles. You made that clear.
Jared Kushner:
But again, if you think we're being unreasonable for that, we're basically asking them to adhere to basic society. And this is where this whole thing's been screwed up for so many years. The Palestinians have said, we have a right to this. We have a right to this, this. But they haven't wanted to do the things necessary in order to achieve it. So yesterday was an amazing example. They're saying they want to have a state. People who are ready to have a state don't call for days of rage when they don't get what they want. What do they do?
Jared Kushner:
They show up to the negotiating table, they act statesmanlike, and they negotiate and they try to get it done. So what we've done is we've given the Palestinian people the most real opportunity that they will ever have, and that they've ever had, to have a state of their own.
Ian Bremmer:
My question is, the United States is the broker of this deal. US is providing leadership. If the Palestinians actually start negotiating and say they're prepared to accept these terms, is the US, the world's largest economy, prepared to offer hard commitments to ensure that that money is there?
Jared Kushner:
I will be able to secure commitments from our partners. I've spoken with them. Look, this requires less money than people are pumping into this thing today. So for a lot of the Arab world, they view the Palestinians as an uncapped liability. They've been funding this thing for a long time. America's put in almost $10 billion over the years, and we have nothing to show for it. So again, I just think that my whole thing is I don't want to reward efforts. I want to reward results. So what we have is a program that we can hold somebody to where as they make reforms, more money comes in.
Jared Kushner:
But we're not just going to throw more bad money after good. And I think that a lot of the neighbors have the same thing. But I will tell you this, the Palestinians will have a much harder time now raising money from the international community because they've played the victimhood card for so long.
Ian Bremmer:
This Palestinian government has rejected this offer.
Jared Kushner:
Look, they played the victimhood card. Now it's like they want their rights. They want a state. It's all on the table. It's all on the table. So I just think that what we've done is we've tried to take ... You're not going to change people's minds overnight. But for the first time, we put out a pragmatic, rational plan. We've gotten a lot of global support for it. And basically what we're saying to the Palestinians is, "Put up or shut up." If you want to actually make a difference, if you actually care about helping the people, you now have a golden opportunity to do that.
Jared Kushner:
If your whole thing was about staying in power and getting all this money, it's going to dry up pretty quickly now.
Ian Bremmer:
The Palestinians rejected, Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas categorically rejected the deal. We will not-
Jared Kushner:
Before he saw it.
Ian Bremmer:
We will not kneel down.
Jared Kushner:
Before he saw it though.
Ian Bremmer:
He said, we will not kneel down. He said annexation of 30% of our territory is nonsense. Question is, you're not surprised by this, obviously.
Jared Kushner:
Look, he has a perfect track record of not making deals. He's never made a deal. And so, it's almost like people treat him like he's this great deal maker or statesman. What has he done? I mean, he flies around to all the different countries because that's more fun than running a country and running a people and picking up the trash and running schools and all the things that leaders are supposed to do. But the reality is that if he wants to help his people, which I believe he does in his heart, then you've got to sit down and make a deal.
Jared Kushner:
And again, the situation's gotten worse and worse and worse. And I have been doing this for three years. And what's amazing is nobody's put forward any new ideas. Nobody's put forward any alternatives. Everyone's spoken in high level details. And what's happening is it's getting worse and worse. Now, the one-
Ian Bremmer:
What's happening is it's getting worse and worse for the Palestinians.
Jared Kushner:
For the Palestinians.
Ian Bremmer:
It's not getting worse and worse for the Israelis.
Jared Kushner:
No, no, no. They're doing fine.
Ian Bremmer:
One could argue that actually they're doing considerably better today, particularly after this deal has come out, than they were five or 10 years ago.
Jared Kushner:
I would argue that this is a big compromise from the Israelis because they don't have a strong reason to compromise. Because they're strong and getting stronger. We got them to make a historic compromise. That comes at a cost, obviously, in terms of what we're willing to do, in terms of recognition of this map in order to buy a four-year freeze from them. But look, every opportunity comes at a cost. And what we're doing is buying an opportunity for the Palestinian people.
Ian Bremmer:
So, the Palestinian government's saying no. I kind of wonder on a few different fronts how much that even matters to you. In the sense that, number one, is it really about pressuring the Palestinian people to get rid of this government and to bring a new government in?
Jared Kushner:
No.
Ian Bremmer:
Is it-
Jared Kushner:
No, no, no, no, no, no. Not about regime change. But what I will say this, is that every deal that I've ever done, people are always at no before they get to yes. So there's a difference between posturing and there's a difference between doing, right? So people will always say no until they're at yes, and that's just the reality of it.
Ian Bremmer:
You've gotten support from a number of Arab world governments on this deal, and in fact, some of them sent their official representatives to the announcement with Trump and Netanyahu. That did not happen from Jordan. If the Jordanians, as of now, are opposing this deal, does that make it impossible to move forward with the Palestinians?
Jared Kushner:
Well, I don't think the Jordanians are opposing the deal. I think that what they're doing is they're looking to go through the details. Their statement came out right after, they'd had a preview of some of the issues in it. But look, they're very close with the Palestinians. They have majority Palestinian population there. And they would be the biggest beneficiaries of this plan if it were to be successful. Because having a stable neighbor would be incredible and then there'd be $10 billion of investment that would come into Jordan that they badly need for their economy.
Ian Bremmer:
Had you spoken to the Jordanian government before this came out, talked about the role that was envisioned for them in the plan that you were putting out?
Jared Kushner:
Again, one of the reasons why I've been able to be successful in my time in government is that the discussions I have with people almost never get out. And one thing I was able to do with this plan was keep it secret, which built more trust with people to share more ideas honestly and to allow us to kind of have the element of surprise, which I think worked yesterday because a lot of the Arabic media was talking about, wow, this is a two state solution for the Palestinians.
Ian Bremmer:
People did not know that.
Jared Kushner:
They have an amazing opportunity-
Ian Bremmer:
People in the region did not know that. Leaders in the region did not know that. Let's talk about the other countries that were engaged and involved in this. As you said, you've separated the Arab world, much of the Arab world, from the Israel-Palestinian discussions. You've got the Emiratis supporting it. You've got the Egyptians supporting it. You've got Saudi. You've got Bahrain, which is basically Saudi supporting it twice. You've got a number of governments and some Europeans as well.
Ian Bremmer:
How significant in your mind is it for the Palestinians, as well as for the Israelis, that you now have a number of key Middle Eastern governments saying this deal, the most pro-Israel deal that we've seen put forward on the peace process is actively supported by these governments? What does it say?
Jared Kushner:
So again, I wouldn't call this the most pro-Israel deal. I would call this the most pragmatic deal that's ever been put forward, given the context of the time we're in-
Ian Bremmer:
The one that reflects the-
Jared Kushner:
... And the situations on the ground.
Ian Bremmer:
... The Israeli-Palestinian power balance as it exists in 2020.
Jared Kushner:
It reflects the realities as they are in the world today. And so what you're seeing from the statements of support from a lot of people is that they want to see this resolved. They realize that this instability is used for radicalization. And if you look at the last 70 years in the Middle East, the Arab world has used the hatred of Israel as a unifying function and a way to deflect from a lot of their own internal shortcomings. So what we're entering now is a period when I was on the campaign, everyone was saying in the Middle East, it's the divide between the Sunnis and the Shias.
Jared Kushner:
That's not the divide that I see today. I see the divide between leaders who want to help give their people the opportunity for a better life through economic investment, more freedom, more rights, more investment, and leaders who want to use radical ideas and extremism to continue to repress their societies and cause instability throughout the region. American interest in the Middle East used to be about having a supply of fuel. Now, the American interest there is purely to stop radicalization. And the biggest element today that caused radicalization is the conflict with the Palestinians and the conflict with the mosque.
Jared Kushner:
And so if we can get some resolution on this issue, and what we've done today is a major step, because we've given them an offer where for the first time, the whole entire Islamic world can say the mosque is safe, and any Muslim who wants to come to pray is welcome. We've also been in a place where you said, if the Palestinians want a state and they want to thrive, they now have an offer on the table. And so it's very hard to say that the Palestinian people are victims, if they're victims of anything, it's of having bad leadership.
Jared Kushner:
And hopefully the global community will come together, recognize the realities, stop the illogical constructs and the fairytales that we've been talking about for 25 years and try to solve this problem.
Ian Bremmer:
When you talk to the leaders of these Gulf states, are they saying we want to get to a place where we can normalize a relationship with Israel?
Jared Kushner:
It's an inevitability. It is happening. It will happen. And what happened yesterday is a major step because now a lot of these Arab leaders can look at it and say, look, we can't wait forever for the Palestinians to do something rational. If they're going to cut their nose off, we have to do what's in the best interest of our country first, and it's in the best interest of their country to make these normalizations.
Ian Bremmer:
There is an election, a third election going on now between Netanyahu and Gantz. Certainly there are many who are saying, making this offer right after Netanyahu has been indicted, he's under siege, is a gift to him. How do you respond to that?
Jared Kushner:
So we did this based on the president's schedule. He's been doing a lot of different things, and this was the date that we were able to get done. The real precipitating force for this was that we were able to work with General Gantz and work with Prime Minister Netanyahu to get them both to agree to support it. So if we could unify Israel during a contentious election, I think that's even a stronger statement than doing this after an election when you have somebody in power. So we felt like that was an opportunity that we didn't want to miss to get Israel united for the first time in history behind an offer of a state to the Palestinians and agreeing to a map.
Ian Bremmer:
And Gantz flipped. He originally said that he did not want you interfering in the election calendar and didn't want this to be out there until after the election. Then he actually gave very strong support, and when he showed up, he said he'll do everything he can to make this peace deal happen. Is that because he wasn't aware of what was in the deal before?
Jared Kushner:
See, it's funny. Journalists call flipping a bad thing. He did not know what was in the plan. We reached out to him. We had several discussions. We built a lot of trust with him because we were able to keep details confidential. He showed that he was willing to put what's best for the state of Israel ahead of what he thought was best for himself politically. And I think that that was a very strong statement that he was willing to do it. So flipping on this was about the fact that he did not understand what the opportunity was.
Jared Kushner:
And then once he understood the opportunity, he was willing to do what was the right thing to do to come together, and same thing with Prime Minister Netanyahu. So a lot of people have tried to draw correlations to other things that are happening in Israeli politics, but the reality is that there's no linkage to it one way or the other.
Ian Bremmer:
And Trump has certainly been willing to put his finger on the scale in one direction or the other when he likes a leader in particular. He was in favor of Boris Johnson, not Jeremy Corbyn in the UK. Is there-
Jared Kushner:
In fairness, that wasn't a very hard decision. I mean, Boris is fabulous and they have a good relationship. They have similar views of the world, and I would say that Jeremy Corbyn and President Trump probably have polar opposite views of the world.
Ian Bremmer:
They disagree about a lot.
Jared Kushner:
So that was not-
Ian Bremmer:
I think we can say that.
Jared Kushner:
... Really that complicated of him.
Ian Bremmer:
But here in Israel, you've got two leaders that both support your plan. Is there a view, again, long personal relationship, not just for you, but also for the president, the whole family with Netanyahu, do you have a personal view? Do you have an administration view as to whether or not you'd prefer Netanyahu to actually pull this through?
Jared Kushner:
So look, I work for America. I'm a volunteer. I gave up my business to come and work for America. This is the greatest country in the world. And my view is that I'm going to do every day what's in America's interest to make the world safer, to make America safer, to make our country more prosperous, and to continue to do all the things that the president promised. So our policies that will work with whoever is the elected representative of a different country, and again, Bibi's been a great partner. We've worked very hard to bring the relationship closer together.
Jared Kushner:
President Trump and Prime Minister Netanyahu together have accomplished amazing things. But at the end of the day, America's relationship is with the state of Israel and we'll continue to do whatever it is possible to make sure that we're conducting our foreign policy in an appropriate way that we think furthers our interest as a country.
Ian Bremmer:
So if Trump doesn't win in November, how does this go forward? I mean, at the end of the day, I mean, Obama had an Iran plan. Trump came in, ripped it up, no more deal. I mean, the fact that we have elections every four years, Israel-Palestinian peace, it's something goes on for a very long time. What do you do about that?
Jared Kushner:
I think that was one of the reasons why Israel wanted to do something now. They saw an opportunity with a president who spent the time to really study the issues and put them down on paper in a way that was very detailed and thoughtful. And again, they don't love everything in the plan, but it's better than what they think they've seen before. And they're willing to go out in that regard. So look, if President Trump is reelected, which I believe he will, then I do think there's a lot of inevitability to a lot of the foreign policy issues.
Jared Kushner:
You have a lot of countries right now that are holding their breath praying that they get a stupider president in office. And I think that they're trying to just get through the election, whether it's Iran, whether it's North Korea, whether it's, I guess the Palestinians, whether it's a lot of places. I think that they realize that President Trump's been very tough. He's done what he says he was going to do. He's forced people to the table to do things that they've never done before.
Ian Bremmer:
I mean, the Iranians clearly know if Trump doesn't win, Democrat comes in, the likelihood of going back to a deal is higher. So if they can wait it out despite their economic challenges, that's a good plan for them. Palestinians are in a tougher position. Right?
Jared Kushner:
Yeah.
Ian Bremmer:
So I mean, for them waiting it out, it only means the Israelis keep going. I mean, Netanyahu, we now see the Israeli Knesset is planning on taking up annexing the territory in the West Bank this weekend.
Jared Kushner:
Well, let's see what happens. The hope is that they'll wait till after the election and we'll work with them to try to come up with something. But again, what we're going to do after the-
Ian Bremmer:
But you're not waiting. I mean, now that you have the plan out there, if they go ahead and annex, the administration is supporting that position. Right?
Jared Kushner:
No. What the administration is doing is we've agreed with them on forming a technical team to start studying, taking the conceptual map. I mean, the Jordan Valley can mean a lot of different things, all the lang. And again, I want to make sure that we have all of the parameters defined and that we have also a situation where we know what the freeze is. And so what we have now is almost like called more of a term sheet, and then we have to work over a couple months to turn that into a document that we can both feel good about.
Jared Kushner:
So I think that we'll hopefully wait. We'll start working on the technical stuff now. But I think we'd need an Israeli government in place in order to move forward. But we'll see what happens.
Ian Bremmer:
Jared Kushner, thank you very much.
Jared Kushner:
Ian, thank you very much.
Ian Bremmer:
Good to see you.
Jared Kushner:
Thank you.
Ian Bremmer:
That's it for the podcast this week. We'll be back in your feed next week. Check out full episodes of GZERO World on public television or at gzeromedia.com.
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The GZERO World Podcast is brought to you by our founding sponsor, First Republic. First Republic, a private bank and wealth management company understands the value of service, safety and stability in today's uncertain world. Visit firstrepublic.com to learn more.
Subscribe to the GZERO World Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or your preferred podcast platform, to receive new episodes as soon as they're published.