Podcast: The Future (of Global Leadership) is Female with Melanne Verveer

TRANSCRIPT: The Future (of Global Leadership) is Female with Melanne Verveer

Melanne Verveer:

So many people in different parts of the world have said to me, "I don't like criticizing your country. We really have always wanted to be like America, to be like you in terms of what you stand for, in terms of the freedom, in terms of the equality that we see in your society. And when you don't practice it yourselves, you let us down."

Ian Bremmer:

Hi, I'm Ian Bremmer and welcome to the GZERO World Podcast. I'm host of the weekly show "GZERO World" on public television, and in this podcast we share extended versions of the big interviews from that show. This week I sit down with Melanne Verveer, executive director of the Institute for Women, Peace and Security at Georgetown University. Melanne was also the first US ambassador-at-large for global women's issues. Today I'll ask her about the geopolitical impact of the #MeToo movement and how the global landscape looks for women in foreign policy today. Let's get to it.

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Ian Bremmer:

Ambassador Melanne Verveer, thank you very much for joining me.

Melanne Verveer:

Ian, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

Ian Bremmer:

We have a world run mostly by guys. How would it be better if that weren't the case?

Melanne Verveer:

I think it would be better in many ways. Not that women are better than men or men are better than women, but we would be tapping the experiences, the talents, the perspectives of all of our people. Diversity is a plus. Diversity is an advantage. What we know today is that as women are included in the economies of our countries, those economies are far more competitive and prosperous. They're jobs-creating, they're GDP-growing, they're enhancing inclusive prosperity.

Melanne Verveer:

Where women are engaged in politics, they bring a different dynamism to the political discourse and to political outcomes. In our own country we have so few women in our Congress comparatively in terms of percentages. But if you look back at some of the achievements that matter for us as a country to benefit women, families, et cetera, women have come across their party divides, whether it's been Title IX, which has given all those young female Olympians, had a lot to do with their medals, whether it's having a strong "violence against women" law, whether it's some of the decisions that have been made in terms of health coverage. It has made a difference.

Melanne Verveer:

And so I think we have to reach the point where we understand that progress for women is progress for society. It's a benefit to all of us. Yes, it's the moral thing to do. Gender equality is the right thing to do, but it is the smart thing to do as well.

Ian Bremmer:

Now, how much of this is the natural outgrowth of globalization? And, world's getting wealthier, people are living in cities, women are going to do better as a consequence of that. How much of this is... do you see direct intervention from the West in making a difference? How do you check that out?

Melanne Verveer:

Well, I think it does make a difference. I think women benefit enormously from trade, for example. They're not usually figured to be major players in trade, but I've seen in places like Africa where we've got the United States has AGOA, the Africa Growth Opportunity Act, which takes away the tariffs if one is exporting to the States. As women know what their opportunities are as they move from, as I saw firsthand, from just growing nuts on trees from that agrarian-based society to understanding how that can be turned into products, creams and spas. I remember sitting with a woman, several of them, that we brought to a ministerial so that the ministers could hear firsthand. Economics ministers, not women's ministers, but ministers who are dealing with the economy to understand. As this woman from Ghana said, "You know Mr. Minister, my products today are on the docks in Newark, New Jersey and in Tokyo, Japan."

Ian Bremmer:

Now, if we look around the world in many of these issues, the United States is not quite where we'd want it to be. On the one hand, you look at the top corporate leaders and the top financial leaders in the US, very few women in those ranks right now. You've had women heads of state in Latin America, in Asia, across Europe, haven't had one in the United States yet. How come?

Melanne Verveer:

There are probably a lot of reasons, maybe you're in a better position to answer this.

Ian Bremmer:

I am not.

Melanne Verveer:

But you're exactly right, Ian, in terms of the reality. We are the only industrialized country in the world that doesn't have paid maternal leave. It should be parental leave. We don't have adequate childcare for the way the workplace has changed. We are behind, as you pointed out, in terms of women on boards, in terms of women in top management, in terms of women in politics. We've got 20% women in our Congress, which is a very low number compared to most countries. On the World Economic Gender Gap Report, we've dropped to 45th place. We have to do better. And I think in our own country, we are not paying sufficient attention to, and this goes to our politics and the people who represent us, to these issues that matter greatly to American families, not just to women. Now, progress for women is progress for society.

Ian Bremmer:

If we really buy that this is an economic no-brainer, that bringing women in at every level is only going to make it positive, if the United States is an individualistic, entrepreneurial, free market, go-go growth place. In principle, you would expect that the US would therefore be leading the world on bringing women into every level everywhere. And yet we're not seeing that. We're seeing the Scandinavians who aren't exactly go-go growth as taking the lead there. So what do you think? Where's the disconnect?

Melanne Verveer:

I think we could be doing that much better, certainly on entrepreneurship. I saw some research recently that said that women-run businesses in the United States, if they were a country, their GDP would be fifth in the world. So there is this energy, this GDP growth, economic push that women are making in the United States. Now, it could be that much greater. What's happening in the workplace, you find so many women who are at the lower levels of our economy stuck. We have benefits that we could incentivize and provide that would have bigger payoffs. So yes, where it's happening, it has big payoffs, but it's not happening as much as it should happen and I think the United States should lead. I agree with you, absolutely.

Ian Bremmer:

Who are the next women leaders in the world that we're going to pay attention to? Today you look at Christine Lagarde, you look at Angela Merkel. It's not a large group of women that are really among the leaders of the free world. Who do you think in five, in 10 years' time, some people you'd point to and say, "Ian, I think you should watch them?"

Melanne Verveer:

Well, I don't have ready names, but certainly there is women's leadership that is manifesting itself today. You look at the president of Estonia who was very impressive. She's young-

Ian Bremmer:

PhD physicist by training, I think, right?

Melanne Verveer:

She's very impressive. A mayor was just elected in Tunis, Tunisia, a female of all places. Tunisia is not in the best of situations economically, politically.

Ian Bremmer:

Politically, the most democratic of-

Melanne Verveer:

It may be the only Arab spring country that makes it, and we hope they do, obviously, but she's somebody to watch because she is from the Ennahda party, and so she has to traverse the social divide in Tunisia. But if she succeeds and presents that new model of female leadership, I think it will make for a very good situation there. That is a country where there was an attempt, when they were rewriting the constitution after their revolution, to take women's equality out of the constitution. It became a huge issue. It was going to turn into women's complementarity, and it didn't happen because there was such a strong ferment out of the larger society, even though there was tremendous pushback from some quarters-

Ian Bremmer:

Yeah, 'separate but equal' didn't work very well in the United States.

Melanne Verveer:

No, it didn't work very well, for us or for anybody.

Ian Bremmer:

So I want to ask you about the Saudis, because here's one where on the one hand, there seems to be a real commitment to making life different for women that have been truly treated as second class citizens. On the other hand, very controversial and maybe some backsliding. We see a lot of women activists that have recently been detained without perhaps a lot of due process. Where do you see the Saudis right now?

Melanne Verveer:

Well, I know that MBS-

Ian Bremmer:

Mohammed bin Salman, the crown prince-

Melanne Verveer:

The crown prince has conveyed the fact that he really wants to bring that society into the 21st century. Whether the pact between the ruling parties and the Wahhabis actually can be torn apart so that can happen, I think remains to be seen. There are some things that are happening there, however, under his leadership that are very troubling. You alluded to them. Women who were the pioneers, many of them, in pushing for women's right to drive, which seems not like the biggest deal in the world, yet to emancipate them in that way, are in prison. Samar Badawi is in prison because she has been a strong advocate for women's rights. Other women are also there.

Melanne Verveer:

The contretemps with Canada is inexplicable to me. Why he would be so taken aback in the ways that he has been in responding to a tweet from the foreign minister of Canada about human rights and women's rights, to create consequences about removing huge numbers of students from Canada, starting a huge trade, I don't know if I should call it a war, the removal of their trade that has happened between the two countries. It's absurd, so while-

Ian Bremmer:

Maybe he saw that Trump was beating up on Canada, he just wanted to get onboard.

Melanne Verveer:

You know, that's actually... I haven't thought about that, but maybe there's something to it. But at any hand, it's troubling because on the one hand you want to root for reform, you want to really... And so many of the women in Saudi Arabia are incredibly talented, incredibly smart. The brilliant fathers who own the businesses have been passing them to their daughters, and despite inheritance laws, working things out so that they are the ones running the businesses. There's so much potential there, but I worry so much about these reactions that, what do they say? Do they say that they're not going to get there? What does it say? I don't know. I think on the one hand we want him to succeed in terms of reforms, I certainly do in terms of women's progress. On the other hand, I'm very worried about what's happened.

Ian Bremmer:

There's clearly a push and pull. There has been international pressure. I guess bring this back to the US for a second. Do you think, with all of Donald Trump's problems, challenges, in his relations with women, has that had a meaningful impact in America's ability to make a difference, help to lead, change the world for women getting included in other economies?

Melanne Verveer:

Well, I think the problem is with America's leadership and what we convey in terms of our diplomatic work, in terms of our political leadership. Are we standing up for human rights anywhere in the world? Maybe a statement here and there, but we have depleted and undone so much of that commitment that we have made over the years. We are only this great idea, the values that we espouse. So many people in different parts of the world have said to me, "I don't like criticizing your country. We really have always wanted to be like America, to be like you in terms of what you stand for, in terms of the freedom, in terms of the equality that we see in your society. And when you don't practice it yourselves, you let us down."

Ian Bremmer:

Well, I ask you that precisely because on the one hand, America's ability to lead by example is clearly conflicted in that environment. On the other, the diplomats are still there and they're doing their jobs, and America's still spending their money and there's more humanitarian aid from the US than anywhere else in the world, and the private sector, and the foundations, and all the rest. So I'm just wondering, you as someone who does travel all over the world, engaging in these issues, if you really want to thread the needle on America as a force for change on these issues, you would say what?

Melanne Verveer:

I would say America needs to do better. I would say that you're right, our diplomats are still in place, but we have just left the Human Rights Council. Now, the Human Rights Council certainly has had its problems. Nobody argues with that. But the reality-

Ian Bremmer:

Which is largely an Israel-Palestine argument, that has-

Melanne Verveer:

Israel-Palestine, some other regionalism that's crept in, et cetera. But the reality is, that's the place where so many human rights defenders come. That's the place that has issues before it today about some of the biggest violations in human rights. That's the place, when it creates the evidence base, that oftentimes that becomes the evidence that brings the prosecutions for crimes against humanity or war crimes. It's a forum that we should lead in. When you remove yourself, you can't be the voice for change or upholding the voice for values. So yes, we have people in place, but are our diplomats, struggling as they might, upholding what they know to be the right thing? Some have resigned because they can't represent a government anymore that is contrary, or their view that it is so contrary to everything that we have espoused, or much of what we have espoused. So it's not a pretty picture.

Ian Bremmer:

Melanne Verveer, thank you very much.

Melanne Verveer:

Thank you, Ian. It's a pleasure.

Ian Bremmer:

That's our show this week. We'll be right back here next week, same place, same time. Unless you're watching on social media, in which case it's wherever you happen to be, don't miss it. In the meantime, check us out at gzeromedia.com.

Announcer:

The GZERO World is brought to you by our founding sponsor, First Republic. First Republic, a private bank and wealth management company. Imagine a bank without teller lines where your banker knows your name, and its most prized currency is extraordinary client service. Hear directly from First Republic's clients by visiting firstrepublic.com.