Podcast: The Politics of a Pandemic with Sen. Chris Coons

TRANSCRIPT: The Politics of a Pandemic with Sen. Chris Coons

Chris Coons:

I do think we'll get another round of relief if nothing else, because the headwinds for both Trump's reelection and for the economy are getting stronger and stronger.

Ian Bremmer:

Hello and welcome to the GZERO World Podcast. Here you'll find extended versions of the interviews from my show on public television. I'm Ian Bremmer, and today I'm talking to the man known as the Biden Whisperer, Delaware Senator Chris Coons. We'll discuss how the politics of the pandemic at home and abroad have reshaped the presidential election, and I'll ask him what a Biden administration formed policy agenda would look like. Let's get to it.

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Ian Bremmer:

US Senator Chris Coons, good to be with you, sir.

Chris Coons:

Great to be with you again, Ian. Thanks for having me on.

Ian Bremmer:

Absolutely. So jump right in. We are a few months into the pandemic right now, record high cases, nine states with record hospitalizations. President has dismissed those as embers. Every public health expert is calling for a more coherent federal response. My question to you is, if we're saying the Trump administration is failing to act, why isn't Congress stepping in?

Chris Coons:

Well, first I'll say that Congress has stepped in to the extent that we did actually come together two months ago and pass unanimously a very large package of relief and support for state and local governments, for hospitals, funding for testing, for the development of vaccines. But bluntly, Ian, the chaotic and uncoordinated federal response when it came to testing, when it came to PPE, personal protective equipment, when it came to just setting and keeping a standard really rests at the feet of President Trump. The CDC puts out guidance, Dr. Fauci gives briefings, and then President Trump just bluntly ignores the advice of his most senior scientists and public health advisors.

One of the things that has most concerned and alarm me is President Trump's decision to try and withdraw the United States from the World Health Organization. I'm not even sure he has the legal authority to do that. So Congress has acted and will act again to provide relief, support and assistance, but we frankly have failed to reign in the president's rambling and incoherent briefings and his routine, bad example in terms of his public health practices. And that's frankly largely because Republican leaders in the Senate and Republican governors around the country have followed his lead rather than following the science.

Ian Bremmer:

He can't leave, not for a year anyway. So you're right about that in terms of legal authority on the WHO. Absolutely true that one of the positive moments in this crisis has been Senate House and Executive coming together with the initial relief and stimulus. Everyone out there economically is saying, we're going to need an awful lot more. The lift is only getting harder. How comfortable, confident are you right now looking ahead at the next month, two months that we're going to get another trillion plus and what do you think that package looks like, if it happens?

Chris Coons:

I do think we'll get another round of relief if nothing else, because the headwinds for both Trump's reelection and Republicans retaining the majority in the Senate and for the economy are getting stronger and stronger. There are funds that remain unspent in programs like the Paycheck Protection Program for small businesses, but there are critical ways in which the PPP has failed to address some of the real concerns that I've tried to prioritize access to credit for minority owned, veteran-owned, woman owned, or very small businesses, and there's other programs like the EIDL or the Emergency Impact Disaster Loan that really have failed to get off the ground at all. I do think that Republicans led by Majority Leader McConnell are drafting this week and next week what will be the next package, and then there will be a week or two of vigorous negotiations with Speaker Pelosi and minority leader Schumer and the White House.

I think in the end we will see some aid to state and local governments, some additional individual stimulus checks or relief support, some solution around the extension of unemployment and some kind of a back to work bonus and support for training. There are a lot of other questions though. Will there be relief for renters and for mortgage holders? Will there be relief and funding for schools to reopen in the fall and for day cares? If we can't safely reopen schools and universities, that's going to have a huge impact on employment and on the economy and on confidence. And then last, will there be any real federal coordination around a national stockpile and around distributing critically needed personal protective equipment and medical supplies at exactly a time when we are seeing not just the control of the virus, but the virus now exploding to the worst it's ever been in the United States?

Ian Bremmer:

Now, you're one of the people, one of the relatively few people that's considered to be someone who, a moderate, reaches across the aisle, can work with colleagues, plays nicely with neighbors, that kind of thing. Because you did get a very large package through and you're hopeful about another one. Does it feel similar in that regard to 2008, 2009 when such an immense amount of funding was required in a very short period of time? How's it similar? How's it different?

Chris Coons:

Well, I wasn't in the United States Senate at the time. I was a county executive starting anyway, starting in 2005, so I was in the middle of running the second largest government here in Delaware, and many of us were very anxiously watching to see what Washington would do. One of the striking things was that Republicans, broadly speaking, steadfastly refused to partner with the Obama-Biden administration, and so the Recovery Act passed in '09 was in some ways smaller than it really needed to be to restart the economy. We've already passed four bills that total more than $2.8 trillion to a very wide range of sectors of our economy, nonprofits, small business, large business hospitals, universities, state and local governments.

The Recovery Act in '09, about 40 to 50% of it was tax relief. So in terms of spending it was below 500 billion. We've already done more than four times that so far. I do think that's the only reason that we've got a floor underneath our economy, that we've seen some recovery in job creation. But given the ways in which the chaotic federal response has led to a reemergence of the pandemic, especially in states that opened too quickly without a testing plan, without clear public compliance to safe distancing standards, I think we've got a real challenge on our hands.

Ian Bremmer:

Now, I mean, given the public health crisis and we're still in the first wave, not even talking about the second yet, federal employees being ushered back to office buildings under very inconsistent and conflicting reopening plans. Why is this happening? What can we do about it?

Chris Coons:

Well, one of the things I think Congress should do is to assert its leadership here. We've got a federal entity, it's called OSHA, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, whose job it is to set safe standards for the workplace, whose job it is-

Ian Bremmer:

They're not really doing that right now.

Chris Coons:

... particularly in a pandemic, to set a science-based standard for when and how it's safe to return to work. And they've been awol, they've been missing, they have refused to issue an emergency standard for the return to work, which they could and which would give both employers and employees a standard that they can look to for guidance about when and how it's safe to return to work.

Ian Bremmer:

Have you spoken to anyone there? Are you getting any sort of response as to why they have effectively abdicated their responsibility?

Chris Coons:

We had a broad hearing on the Senate Judiciary Committee about this topic. There were representatives from different industry groups, from the administration, from different advocacy groups, and frankly, I'm not optimistic that we are going to hear anything positive from OSHA. I know there've been letters from the Democratic caucus. I know there've been calls for prompt and decisive action from business groups, large and small. But the counter answer that Majority Leader McConnell is urging is that we simply provide a blanket liability waiver for all employers. Here's the challenge. If you provide a blanket liability waiver to employers large and small, how does an employee know that it's safe to go back to work? That they're actually going back to a workplace where the standards that they're following in terms of masks and hand washing and distancing will protect their health and safety. And then aren't we putting those employees and well-intentioned employers in a really tough bind? This is a fight that's going to be joined on the floor of the Senate before the end of this month, and I don't know how it's going to resolve.

Ian Bremmer:

You've been one of the Senate's most ardent defenders of the filibuster, and for reasons we won't get into, prevents a simple majority from passing legislation. But now that a Biden administration looks increasingly possible, even likely, you've had second thoughts. Why the change in tune and why isn't such an evolution more of a political calculation on your part?

Chris Coons:

Well, so a lot of folks in the primaries questioned and challenged Joe Biden's expressed positive memories about a time when the Senate worked. Some of his primary opponents and some of his critics suggested that Joe Biden was somehow naive, that his desires for a return to civility and for bipartisanship were out of step with the Senate of today. My comment in response to that, my comment in response to your question about my views on this, nobody is clearer about just how ruthlessly, how persistently, how aggressively Mitch McConnell used the power of the minority to thwart the Obama-Biden administration's agenda than Joe Biden. He was charged with selling the Affordable Care Act on The Hill, getting a majority to support initiative after initiative, whether it was on climate or was on the Recovery Act or was on healthcare. And it was deeply frustrating the extent to which Republicans use their minority power in no small part because of the filibuster to block the filling of critical judicial vacancies, to block the advancement of critical legislation.

So you're referencing an article in Politico where I said, "I still hope for a path forward where we can get a bipartisan majority that will legislate, that will tackle issues like prescription drug prices or climate change." I'll remind you, I'm the co-founder and lead of the Bipartisan Climate Solutions Caucus that has 14 members. It is possible, I think, for us to legislate solutions to these big problems, but I was quoted saying, "I will not sit idly by for four years and watch the administration, the Biden administration have its key nominations and its policy agenda thwarted." That was intended to say that I believe we should defend the filibuster, but I'm not willing to sit by for four years and watch an entire administration lose the opportunity to make real change.

Ian Bremmer:

Some foreign policy questions for you. First of all, I mean, all the headlines right now are about the reports of a Russian bounty plot to kill American troops in Afghanistan. You said that you wanted to make sure that Russia is made to pay a price, so far pretty clear that they have not, unlikely Trump is going to make that move. Is Congress going to, and what do you think is possible?

Chris Coons:

Well, first I think it's important that members of Congress get briefed on what the intelligence is and what it was. One of the things that's really striking to me is that there are press accounts that the president's daily intelligence briefing, forgive me, included critical information about intelligence saying that the Russians were paying bounties to the Taliban to kill American troops and coalition troops. That that happened roughly a year before that became public. And President Trump spoke to Putin six or seven times over that period. Even if we should somehow forgive that he misses or doesn't read or isn't interested in his daily intelligence briefing, how is it possible that President Trump had call after call after call with Putin while his most senior advisors and leaders in the intelligence community were aware of this bounty arrangement between Russia and the Taliban or other forces in Afghanistan?

How is it possible that he wasn't ever briefed on this? I frankly don't find that credible. First, I think members of the Senate and the House need to demand a full briefing on this. The Gang of Eight has received it, but I don't think many members not on intelligence and not in leadership on armed services and foreign relations have. And second, I think we've got some key questions we have to ask ourselves. If an oath to uphold the constitution means anything, it means taking action to protect the troops of the United States, especially when deployed overseas in difficult and dangerous places. And if our alliances mean anything, they must mean standing up and protecting coalition forces who have deployed and fought alongside us in those dangerous and difficult places at our request, not because of any pressing interest in their own home countries. So why was not more assertive and forceful action taken, and what does this tell us about President Trump's relationship with Putin?

One of the things that has made me particularly focused on this, Ian, is that Staff Sergeant Christopher Slutman, a 43 year old Marine Corps reservist, was a Delawarean who left behind a widow and three daughters. He was one of three Marines killed in an incident, a roadside bomb that press accounts strongly suggest was caused by a Russian bounty. This ought to make every American angry and this ought to make every American ask, what are we doing if we're not taking minimally responsible steps to know about Russia's adventurism and its aggressive focus on American troops, and what should a next president be willing and able to do to stand up to Russia using all the tools in our toolkit from sanctions to cyber actions to other actions.

Ian Bremmer:

Now, since we're talking about foreign interference, let's move to the elections. During the impeachment proceedings, president's lawyers told you that foreign interference in an election, not necessarily illegal. We've certainly heard in Bolton's book for example, but also from others, multiple instances where Trump actively solicited political help from China and Turkey. I mean, at this point, and we know also the Obama administration's difficulty and weakness in response to Russian interference in 2016. Is the horse out of the barn for 2020 when it comes to preventing foreign interference in our upcoming election?

Chris Coons:

Gosh, Ian, I sure hope not. There have been plenty of warnings. I'll remind you, President Trump's own handpicked, Director of National Intelligence, director of the FBI, lifelong Republicans, Dan Coats and Christopher Wray have testified in public in front of the Congress that they fully expect Russia's interference in the 2020 election to be broader, stronger, more aggressive than it was in 2016. That's saying something. And in the question you referred to Patrick Philbin, one of President Trump's attorneys during the impeachment trial, who in response to a direct question from me ultimately essentially said that he does not see anything that is a bar to the president accepting assistance from a hostile power in a reelection or an election campaign. I think that is a stunning standard. If we want to remain a democracy and an independent nation, we have to make it clear that it is illegal to solicit and accept assistance from a foreign power.

Think about how many different nation states, not to mention non-state actors have intelligence capabilities, have the ability to generate deep fakes, have the ability to interfere in our social order and in our elections. We are leaving the door wide open if we don't take decisive bipartisan action. There's two bills that have passed the house that could be acted on in the Senate, one's called the SHIELD Act, the other's called the SAFE Act, both of which would strengthen the defense of our elections. I think it's shameful that majority Leader McConnell has not taken up and acted on these bills. We have worked in a bipartisan way to secure election funding at the end of the last Congress, the appropriation subcommittee on which I serve, and then the full appropriations committee with McConnell's support, ultimately appropriated 425 million in election assistance. But study after study has shown that there is a huge gap that states need something like 3.6 billion in election assistance just to conduct their election safely in a pandemic, not to mention defending our elections against foreign interference.

Our elections are run by local elected officials, typically, by county boards of election or by secretaries of state. That's one of its strengths. It's distributed across the country by thousands of state and local elected officials who are responsible and accountable. But we don't ask them to be responsible for defending their states and counties against a Russian missile attack or a Russian jet fighter attack. Why should we expect them to fully fund an expense against a GRU cyber attack against our election? We should be standing up and supporting it with both statute and funding.

Ian Bremmer:

And on issues of discouraging alternatives to in-person voting. I mean, a lot of that money you're talking about is not just in terms of foreign interference, that 3.6 billion, a lots to expand vote by mail, expand early voting. We've heard from the Trump administration, this is how elections get stolen. They shouldn't be allowing it. If people can show up for Black Lives Matter protests, they should be able to show up and vote. Where do you come down on that?

Chris Coons:

Well, I just voted by mail in Delaware's Democratic primary for the presidency. And one of the things that we've had a series of steering committee briefings and meetings on with secretaries of state, with state party leaders, both Democrat and Republican, is that it is possible to safely vote by mail. President Trump votes absentee by mail in every election. Hundreds of thousands of America's diplomats, development professionals and armed forces members vote absentee by mail remotely in every election. Barcodes that are unique to each ballot are printed, at least in the one I just used. It has a uniquely identifying barcode on the envelope for the ballot. I had to sign it, seal it, and then sign it. And then in the state of Delaware, they're inspecting my signature on file, on record and the signature on that envelope to make sure that it matches.

Ian Bremmer:

Part of them setting up a company in Delaware.

Chris Coons:

Well, I would suggest that there is going to be a lot of need for election security machinery and systems if we're going to have greater and greater vote by mail going forward, not because voting by mail is inherently any less secure, but because 40 states have very modest vote by mail, so in order to count the ballots, print the ballots, pay for the postage, you do have to have appropriations. Ian, there are five states right now that for years have conducted most of their elections by mail, including blue states like Oregon and red states like Utah. They do it election after election safely and securely.

Ian Bremmer:

Another quick one on the election then I'll get to Biden. Do you think electoral college delegates should be bound to vote for the candidate that their constituents have elected?

Chris Coons:

Unless I'm mistaken, Ian, the Supreme Court has just rendered an opinion on that topic. I have not read the opinion yet. I think what the Supreme Court ruled was that states can by state law bind their electors to vote for the person for whom they're chosen. Frankly, I favor that system because I think when you go into the voting booth and you vote for a particular candidate, it would be a surprise to the vast majority of Americans if their elector ended up voting for somebody other than the person for whom their state law system required them to. So I'm comfortable with that outcome.

Ian Bremmer:

So a little bit on Biden. You're a top advisor of the Biden campaign. You're there in Delaware, favorite son. When it comes to foreign policy, can you boil it down in kind of a quick nugget or two, what the Biden doctrine you think ends up looking like?

Chris Coons:

I think the Biden doctrine is neither America First, which is ultimately America alone, nor America the world's policeman. I think it is a mischaracterization of the Obama-Biden foreign policy for President Trump to say that we were picking up the tab and fighting the world's wars and that we were disrespected. In fact, I think largely the opposite. The United States benefited significantly from the global network of close alliances with leading free and open societies that we built over the seven decades since the Second World War. And so NATO, I think, is a critical part, not just of our strategic infrastructure, not just to help keep us safe, but to give us access through the EU to markets and to opportunities, to support and significantly strengthen the alliances between countries like Canada, the United Kingdom, Germany, France, United States that have a shared framework of common values.

Whether it's in the Indo-Pacific or it's in the North Atlantic, we've got alliances that I think have made us safer. And in a world where there are critical global challenges from the raging global pandemic caused by COVID-19, to climate change or nuclear non-proliferation, the pathway towards solving those, I think runs through robust engagement with the world and strong alliances. President Trump has a different theory of the case, which is that the United States paid a lot and got very little. I think it is possible for us to get fairer free trade, for us to have a global alliance of free and open societies to push back on digital authoritarianism and for the United States and the other countries with whom we share core values to be stable, safe, and free. But I don't think we will be stable, safe, and free for long if we simply build walls, pull up the drawbridges and retreat back into the United States and insist that it's America first and thus America alone.

Ian Bremmer:

One of Obama-Biden's biggest strategic pieces of outreach was the Trans-Pacific Partnership going to be 40% of the global economy. Obama couldn't quite get it done. Trump leaves it. Do you think Biden picks it up and says, I want back in if he becomes president?

Chris Coons:

I don't know. But I do think that re-engagement with our allies in the Pacific, restarting critical conversations about how do we set standards for conduct of all kinds, whether it's freedom of navigation or it's in the commercial space, how do we set standards for conduct that we all collectively expect China to meet or push back on china's failure to meet? As you know Ian, one of the things I worked very hard on was the enactment of the BUILD Act to create the Development Finance Corporation or the DFC. That was so that the United States could partner with a whole group of our allies around the world in investing in development projects in the developing world, and show what transparent and good development projects that had better labor standards, better environmental standards will look like, frankly, to directly compete with China's Belt and Road initiative around the world. If we don't engage, if we don't show what high standards look like, then I frankly think we are seeding to the Chinese, the standard setting and the leadership role in the emerging parts of the world.

Ian Bremmer:

What do you think the biggest lesson that Biden and the campaign should be to take from Hillary's defeat?

Chris Coons:

Well, look, this is not meant to be disrespectful in any way of Secretary Clinton, who I think was very bright, very capable, and had a very strong policy agenda. We're in a different environment in 2020. In 2016, we had a robust economy. We were largely domestically settled or stable. We were still engaged in long wars in Southwest Asia. But I think there were millions of Americans who felt left out and overlooked, who felt they hadn't participated in the recovery and looked at Donald Trump and thought, why not? I can take a chance. What's the worst thing that could happen. Four years later, they know what the worst thing is that can happen. It's happening right now. We could have a crisis like a global pandemic with a president who is utterly unprepared to lead and to manage. We could have a nationwide crisis caused by the brutal murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis that could reveal the deep divisions in the United States rooted in race and racism, and we could have a president who not only fails to competently respond, but who cracks those divisions wider open.

We've got millions of Americans who maybe were not convinced that Hillary Clinton was the right person to be the next president. They have got to be convinced now that Joe Biden's compassion, his ability to see our differences and heal us and bring us together, his ability to lead in America's best interest on the world stage and the fact that for him, this election is not about him, it's about us, makes him the right choice in this context.

Ian Bremmer:

Okay, so before we close, lightning round. One sentence. Okay. So number one, what is your favorite Biden T-shirt to work out in?

Chris Coons:

It's my Iowa Biden shirt that I got on two trips to go do Grassroots campaigning in Iowa.

Ian Bremmer:

Where do you stand on DC statehood?

Chris Coons:

My senior senator, Tom Harper is leading the bill that would support DC statehood, I'm a co-sponsor of the bill.

Ian Bremmer:

Who least deserves statehood, Delaware or Rhode Island?

Chris Coons:

We are both founding states of the United States, and of course, we deserve statehood. Rhode Island's name is too long and they're fixing that.

Ian Bremmer:

Thank you. Okay, there you go. What Republican senator are you closest to?

Chris Coons:

It'd be hard to pick. Frankly, Johnny Isakson is someone who is a former senator who is a genuine, deep personal friend. Right now, I am frankly working very well with Mike Braun on the Climate Solutions Caucus and with Lisa Murkowski on some energy policy issues.

Ian Bremmer:

And finally, if Biden hadn't won the primary, which Democratic candidate would've had your support?

Chris Coons:

Very hard question to answer.

Ian Bremmer:

Pick one out of the hat. No?

Chris Coons:

I have known mayor-

Ian Bremmer:

Don't say Marianne Williamson. Don't say it.

Chris Coons:

I'm not going to say Marianne Williamson. I will tell you that I have a number of colleagues, obviously, Senator Klobuchar, Senator Booker, Senator Harris, who I know well, who I've legislated with, who are approximate to me politically. Mayor Buttigieg is also someone I've known more than a decade. Excuse me, there were a lot of great candidates in the field. I'd have a hard time narrowing it.

Ian Bremmer:

You came close to pulling off the lightning round there. Very good. Very good. Good to see you, my friend.

Chris Coons:

Thanks, Ian.

Ian Bremmer:

That's it for today's edition of the GZERO World Podcast, like what you've heard. I hope so. Come check us out at gzeromedia.com and sign up for our newsletter, Signal.

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This episode of the GZERO World Podcast was made possible by Lennar, America's largest and most innovative home builder, and the number one destination for foreign residential real estate investment in the US. Learn more at www.lennargzero.com. That's L-E-N-N-A-R-G-Z-E-R-O.com.

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