Podcast: Lebanon Post-Blast: Rage in the Streets of Beirut

TRANSCRIPT: Lebanon Post-Blast: Rage in the Streets of Beirut

Kim Ghattas:

This is our strength, our ability to constantly rebuild no matter what happens. But the Lebanese don't want to just rebuild so that it can be destroyed again. They want to live.

Ian Bremmer:

Hello, and welcome to the GZERO World Podcast. Here you'll find extended versions of the interviews from my show on public television. I'm Ian Bremmer, and today is all about what's next for Lebanon, a country already on the brink of economic crisis, now reeling from a massive explosion in its capital city.

This week as renewed protests forced the Prime Minister and his cabinet to resign, I spoke to journalist and Beirut native, Kim Ghattas, about the city's devastation and its people's rage. Let's get to it.

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Ian Bremmer:

And I'm here with Kim Ghattas. She's a Beirut-based journalist, non-resident senior fellow with Carnegie Endowment, and was with the BBC for some 20 years. Great to be with you, Kim.

Kim Ghattas:

Thanks for having me, ian.

Ian Bremmer:

Where were you, what were you doing, how did you respond when this extraordinary explosion hit your city?

Kim Ghattas:

It was an extraordinary day, Ian, one that none of us really are able to quite comprehend. We've seen the pictures again. We've read the news about our own city, about our own lives being shattered, and yet we still can't quite grasp the enormity, the magnitude of what happened.

On that Tuesday, I was in my apartment in the suburbs of Beirut, just on the edge of the center, by the National Museum. I live on the sixth floor. And I was supposed to be in the Port area, very close to where much of the damage happened, but I was late. And I was distracted by a video that a friend, a journalist, Nabih Bulos, had posted on Twitter of a fire at the Port. And I was watching that video on Twitter, and the first thing that came to my mind was that it might have been sabotage because we've seen these unexplained explosions and fires in Iran. Of course, that Lebanon is also home to Hezbollah militant group, Shia militia political party, strong ally of Iran, active in many countries in the region like Iraq and Syria. So that's the first thing that came to my mind.

And then I heard Nabih's voice over that video saying, whatever it is, it's still raging. And suddenly, the building where I am, a few kilometers away from the Port, started shaking. I thought it was an earthquake. My dog, I have a dog, started running around the house. I grabbed her and pinned her to the floor. And then we heard the noise. A lot of people have commented that they heard the sound of an air raid. And I also did think that it was an air raid. I thought it was an Israeli air raid. But it was the whoosh of the detonation that came all the way to where I live just a few kilometers away.

And the most surreal part of it is that this video on my laptop in my office was still playing. Whatever it is, it's still raging. Whatever it is, it's still raging. And I don't know what was driving me crazier, the sensation of what was happening around us or that video that was on a loop.

But Ian, a week later, whatever it is is still raging. The rage on the streets of Beirut is enormous. The anger and the ineptitude, the mismanagement, the corruption of the government is beyond anything that we have seen.

Ian Bremmer:

We've seen demonstrations, of course in Lebanon, hardly new to social dissent and all the way through the economic collapse, the currency collapse and now. But is it different? I mean, is it too early to say, but does it feel different?

Kim Ghattas:

It is very different. It's very different. I just want to give you a little glimpse of what preceded this conflagration. As you so rightly pointed out, we've been through nine months now of protests, of economic crisis, financial crisis, social crisis, food prices rising, population descending into poverty. All of it because of the inept, corrupt mismanagement of this country over the last 30 years.

Ian Bremmer:

Sanitation crisis-

Kim Ghattas:

Sanitation crisis.

Ian Bremmer:

... started off a lot of this-

Kim Ghattas:

Devaluation.

Ian Bremmer:

Everything.

Kim Ghattas:

People have no access to their money in the banks.

Ian Bremmer:

You can pick it. Lebanon's had the problem.

Kim Ghattas:

Their savings wiped out. And then comes this, the sort of, I mean, it'll sound flippant, but for lack of a better expression, the icing on the cake, the cherry on top. The idea that our governments, successive governments, because it's not just the ineptitude of this current government, could have let 2,700 tons of ammonium nitrate, sitting in a hangar in the Port for so many years, with many people warning about the danger, that this could have been allowed is really quite something. And there are still many unanswered questions about why it was there and what ignited it, but most importantly why it was there.

The other reason why I think this is different is because we've been through a lot in Lebanon. We've been through these last nine months. We've been through invasions, occupations, civil war, other times of economic collapse. This is a country that is on its knees. And now the people are angry. I have never seen rage like this because everyone is affected. This is Beirut. This is the heart of the country. This is key infrastructure. A lot of people say Beirut is the Paris of the Middle East, but I saw a really wonderful tweet saying, Beirut is not just the Paris of the Middle East. It's the Beirut of the world. And Beirut means so much to so many people.

And it is really emblematic of what remains of coexistence and cosmopolitanism. This life of Levantine cosmopolitanism that has been really directly hit with this explosion because the area around the Port is where the cosmopolitan life of Beirut had reconstituted after the war over time. This is where you had the designers, the ateliers of carpenters, jewelers, couturiers, restaurants, all confessions, all social classes, all ages. And what I see in terms of rage on the streets of Beirut really tells me that this is a make or break moment for Lebanon. We are in an existential crisis. And the Lebanon of after August 4th will not be the same as the Lebanon before August 4th.

Ian Bremmer:

What do you think actually happened? I mean, this incredible amount of unsecured explosive sitting there for years. I mean, at the very least, I saw the head of Hezbollah said it wasn't an Israeli strike. So we can get rid of that conspiracy theory.

Kim Ghattas:

Well, we can't. No, we can't. We can't even get rid of that conspiracy actually.

Ian Bremmer:

Really? I mean, because again, because in this sort of environment, I mean, huge explosion in Beirut, you would expect there'd be a hundred thousand different conspiracy theories immediately.

Kim Ghattas:

No one wants to dismiss that one just yet. We are not saying, no one here is saying that it was a raid because although some people said they saw planes, there's been no footage, no confirmation. But it could be sabotage. The thing is, no one wants to claim this. If it was sabotage, if it was an Israeli action, if it was local sabotage for whatever reason, no one wants to claim this because I don't think anyone expected the damage to be this big.

But there are a lot of unanswered questions about how and why this Rhosus ship, Russian-owned, Cypriot-owned Russian captain ended up diverting to Beirut. The story is not clear. The shipment came from Georgia and was supposed to head to Mozambique.

Ian Bremmer:

Mozambique, yeah.

Kim Ghattas:

Mozambique said, we didn't order this. We'd already received, I think, 4,000 tons of ammonium nitrate. So who was this destined for? And whoever it was destined for clearly didn't seem too bothered about claiming it. This has been sitting there in this hangar since 2014.

Now, ammonium nitrate has been a, I mean, it is a fertilizer as well. It is not per se, it is not TNT. It is a fertilizer. And it could have been used to fertilize agricultural land around the country if it was just sitting there and had suddenly become a property of the Lebanese state. But it just sat there. And there is too many unanswered questions about what it was doing there. It is indeed very possible that this was simply criminal negligence, but even criminal negligence needs to be punished.

Ian Bremmer:

I mean, one of the first things I thought of when I saw the thousands of people getting injured is, my God, these people are going to need to be treated in hospitals that are already massively overstretched. And it's going to also increase the risk of further transmission of this horrible disease. How has the government, how have the people been reacting to the pandemic itself? And do you see any interaction because of this additional stress?

Kim Ghattas:

So the good news so far was that Lebanon had done quite well in containing the pandemic. Hospitals were not overstretched. ICU capacity was still fine. The number of deaths was limited. We're around 4,000 cases, which is very manageable. Hospitals were doing an incredible job. These are mostly private hospitals, but also one incredible government hospital that's been leading the response to the pandemic. I like that you said, how did the government, how did the people respond? Because it is really almost two separate entities.

Let me stick with the pandemic for a moment. When it comes to the response to the pandemic, there has been some good government effort. There has been good response from the government hospitals. There's been a lot of incredible response by private hospitals that are stellar. I mean, people come from around the region to be taken care of in Lebanon, before the pandemic. We have excellent doctors, nurses, everything, and state-of-the-art, medical equipment and state-of-the-art hospitals.

But the stretch again, was the financial crisis, hospitals not being able to pay for supplies. The government owing certain hospitals, like the hospital of the American University of Beirut $150 million. The American Hospital of Beirut had to layoff 800 people in part because it has owed so much money by the government, which is not paying.

Now, that's all up until August 4th. The number of cases were starting to rise again, and there were calls to be careful. And for society, for people to be wary, to put on their mask. There is a strong response to calls like that in Lebanon. People feel the solidarity.

Now, after August 4th, several hospitals were severely damaged, and now they're all overstretched by the number of casualties, 4,000 almost. That's where the urgency is.

Ian Bremmer:

And when President Macron came, I mean, on the one hand, wonderful to see a foreign leader pay attention and want to make a positive difference. On the other hand, France, the former imperial power, colonial power in Lebanon, mixed feelings about that?

Kim Ghattas:

No.

Ian Bremmer:

Positive response, generally?

Kim Ghattas:

Very positive.

Ian Bremmer:

How does that play?

Kim Ghattas:

Very positive. He was the first official to visit the devastated areas. Neither the president nor the prime minister, nor anyone had dared gone there yet. So he was the first. And it just shows you how desperate people are for some support, for some recognition, for some empathy, that they threw themselves at him. And there were two things that they said. Don't give money to the government. Give aid directly to the people, to recognized organizations, to hospitals. And second, we want justice. We want an international investigation. The humanitarian aid that has been pledged so far is fine, but it's been made very clear to the leaders of Lebanon and the political establishment that no further aid will come if there are no serious reforms. I mean, Lebanon has been negotiating with the IMF for weeks and weeks now, and they don't seem to sense the urgency. They're pushing the can down the road, and the IMF is saying, well, then you're not getting any money. Now, would we trust this government or a government similar to implement these reforms? We'll have to see.

Ian Bremmer:

No.

Kim Ghattas:

We'll have to see how things unfold.

Ian Bremmer:

And when the Iranian leaders are speaking about no intervention, is that what they're responding to, the fact that the French and others are saying, we need you to reform if you want our help? Is that what they're taking exception to?

Kim Ghattas:

Yes, probably, probably. Look, this is a turning point, not just for Lebanon, but I think it is a very interesting inflection point for the region. We must remember the protests that took place in Iraq since October, the protests that have been taking place on and off in Iran. I talk about this in my book, Ian, Black Wave, where I describe the rivalry between Iran and Saudi Arabia over the last 40 years. A lot of this is local dynamics, local corruption, local sectarianism, local issues. But it is also part of a regional context where something is unraveling and coming to an end. And we don't know yet which way it's going to go, but something is unraveling. And I think that the maximum pressure that is being applied on Iran is making Iran wonder how this is going to play out for them, and they're watching their ally in Lebanon, Hezbollah, probably feeling cornered.

Ian Bremmer:

Here in the United States, the president hasn't said much. Originally, he said it was a bomb that created a bit of a firestorm here, then backed away from it. But has been some announcement of financial aid participating in the broader international effort. Anything you'd like to see from the US that you're not seeing?

Kim Ghattas:

I think the Lebanese people want to see words of support for the Lebanese people. I think they want to make sure that no one extends another lifeline to the current political establishment and the current political factions. So whether it's President Trump or President Emmanuel Macron or the Prime Minister of the UK, Boris Johnson, I think the message from the Lebanese people is this is a turning point for the country. No one wants a military intervention. No one is calling for that. That's not where we are. We are ready as Lebanese people to build our own future, and we want the world to hold the leaders to account. We want an international investigation, and we want international support and aid for the people and pressure for true reforms in this country.

Ian Bremmer:

Frequently in situations where the economy falls apart, and people feel that there's no one for them, they turn to more radical answers and organizations like Hezbollah, end up doing better in that environment. You don't see that happening in Lebanon right now?

Kim Ghattas:

I don't. I don't know if I'm naive, but I don't. I don't think that they can increase their popular base. They might do better if the country descends into chaos because groups like that thrive in chaos. Look at Syria. Look at Iraq. Hezbollah is a local Lebanese political party, but it is also a militant group armed to the teeth with the backing of Iran that has decided and taken it upon itself to wage wars in Iraq, in Syria, in Yemen. And the Lebanese are fed up with that. They want to be left alone. They don't want to be dragged into other people's wars. And they feel, to some extent, hostage to that party, which has a lot of veto power in a lot of the country's decisions, including in the management of key infrastructure like the Port.

Ian Bremmer:

Kind of a personal question, given what just happened, do you think your future is inexorably in Beirut, or if this experiment, because you said this is no going back. I mean, can you imagine that you may not be able to stay, you may not want to stay if the government is not able to sort itself out, if the people are not able to come together?

Kim Ghattas:

Today is not the day to make decisions like this or pronounce pronouncements like this. Today, I think people feel that there is an opportunity in Lebanon, that this is a turning point, that we need to come together, that everybody needs to pitch in. I can't build. I don't know how to use my hands, but I can send the message. I can talk about the country. I can write articles. I can do interviews. We all need to be part of this.

And what I do know is that many people were leaving, are leaving, because they want to enable their children to have a better future, to rescue whatever is left of their savings, of their lives, and they were making plans to leave or have already left. You can't blame them. We are a country of emigration over the centuries. That's why there are millions of us around the world. But I also know people who, when this happened, after the first moments of panic and anger and rage and dismay and total heartbreak, have told me this is the time to stay. This is our chance. This is our chance to reclaim our country from corruption, from sectarianism.

Ian Bremmer:

As someone who loves Beirut very much, and a place that is so cosmopolitan, and the government, but also the culture, the food, the music, they all bringing together, Christians, Sunni, Shia, do you see that same level of unity, of purpose and engagement of everyone together with these demonstrations or not?

Kim Ghattas:

Unity is very difficult in moments like these because people will all want to put forward their vision for how the government has to go forward. And we are not a united country. We are divided, to some extent, because we are Christian, Muslim, Shia, Sunni, Protestant, Catholic, etc. We are expatriates, diaspora, longtime residents, all social classes, etc.

But we are, I think, a majority united in wanting a different future, a future that is non-sectarian, that is non-corrupt, that provides prosperity, justice, dignity for people. I think this is the minimum that everyone, almost, can agree on.

What is going to be very difficult is to determine exactly how to get there, and it is hard to coalesce. Over the last nine months, as we've been saying, there have been massive protests in the country. And then Covid pandemic gave a lifeline to the government. Everybody had to stay indoors, and that kind of meant that the protests petered out, a little bit like in Iran and in Iraq.

What did not happen in the months preceding the lockdowns was the emergence of a unified leadership for the opposition. And there are many reasons for that. People wanted it to be an egalitarian opposition. They wanted it to be horizontal grassroot. And they didn't want opposition leaders to rise, because in the past, opposition leaders have been targets of assassination. We have lost many of our potential leaders of the future in this country in a wave of assassinations that started in 2005 and before.

But going back to the cosmopolitanism, Ian, we pride ourselves in being a melting pot. We pride ourselves in having welcomed Armenians and Palestinians and Sears and having hosted them and housed them with a lot of pain for the country as well. We're home to 1.5 million refugees in a country of barely 5 million. We've been home to several hundred thousand Palestine refugees since 1948. But this is our strength. It is also, to some extent, our weakness, but it is our strength, and so is our resilience and our ability to constantly rebuild no matter what happens. But today, Ian, the Lebanese don't want to just rebuild so that it can be destroyed again. They want to live.

Ian Bremmer:

Thank you so much for joining me. Wishing you only the best.

Kim Ghattas:

Thank you so much for having me, Ian.

Ian Bremmer:

That's it for today's edition of the GZERO World podcast. Like what you've heard? I hope so. Come check us out at gzeromedia.com and sign up for our newsletter, Signal.

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This GZERO World podcast is brought to you by Walmart. Around the world, Walmart aspires to use its strengths to transform the systems on which we all rely, setting ambitious sustainability goals, supporting the communities we serve, and creating development and advancement opportunities for our 2.2 million associates. Learn more at corporate.walmart.com/globalresponsibility.

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