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Conservative MP Michael Chong speaks during a news conference in Ottawa.
China's threats as Mr Chong goes to Washington
National security threats have a way of uniting politicians from across the aisle and that was on full display this week when the US Congress, investigating Chinese foreign interference, asked a Canadian politician named Michael Chong to testify. Not your average Tuesday on Capitol Hill, but Chong has a compelling story to tell.
In 2021, after he tabled a motion in the Canadian Parliament to declare the Chinese repression of the Uyghur population a genocide, he and his extended family in Hong Kong were actively targeted by agents of the People’s Republic of China. China has denied the allegation, but there is plenty of evidence to support Chong’s claims about Chinese interference. With a US election in just over a year and Russian and Chinese disinformation campaigns ratcheting up, US politicians are looking to learn from his experience to develop their own countermeasures.
Chong, now the Conservative Party’s chief foreign affairs critic, was elected in 2004, which is when I first met him as I covered his campaign. Born in Canada, Chong has relatives in Hong Kong, who he now fears will experience ongoing reprisals by Beijing.
I spoke to Chong after he testified in Washington, where US politicians wanted to find out why he thinks the US and Canada need to work more closely to combat Chinese threats to the national security of both countries. During the hearing, they praised his “courage” for standing up to China.
Our conversation has been edited for length and clarity.
Solomon: Thanks for speaking to me Michael. Can you describe what you told US lawmakers when you testified before the Congressional committee that is looking into foreign interference in democracies?
Chong: I delivered two clear messages to US senators and lawmakers. The PRC's interference is also affecting many Canadians coast to coast whose stories remain untold and they suffer in silence. The message I delivered is that we need to deliver a suite of measures, a range of tools, to help governments combat this menace, including closer cooperation among allied democracies.
Can you remind people what happened to you?
Essentially the PRC initially sanctioned me for a decision the government of Canada took to sanction individuals in Xinjiang province, but what happened next crossed the line. Which is that they had a diplomat in the PRC consulate in Toronto named Zhao Wei actively gather information about me and my family back in Hong Kong to further target me using clandestine and coercive measures, that was the first line that was crossed. [Editor's note: Canada eventually expelled the Chinese diplomat.]
The second line crossed was this past May when they actively spread disinformation on Canadian social media platforms about me. Global Affairs Canada concluded that this disinformation emanated from PRC state accounts. So those are just two examples of the kinds of threats that many Canadians are facing every day.
Is China alone in doing this or are other countries also engaging in similar behavior?
That is a good question. China is not alone in doing this but according to our intelligence services, China is by far the number one threat actor based on the intelligence gathered. We believe that over 90% of the foreign interference threat activity in Canada come from the PRC. So, it is by far the main foreign threat operating inside Canada and why the focus has been on countering this threat.
What kind of measures should be deployed to stop this?
A foreign agent registry is one measure that needs to be implemented. The Canadian government has committed to introducing one in the future. Another measure is using sunlight and transparency to publicly tell citizens about intelligence gathering and foreign interference threat activity so citizens can insulate themselves from these kinds of threats.
Another example is exchanging best practices on evidentiary standards and translating intelligence into evidence. Other measures include resources to law enforcement to prosecute individuals from breaking the law and threatening Canadians. So, there are a range of measures but there is no one magic bullet that is going to fix this problem.
China denies all this. They say they did not engage in any interference and certainly not against you. Are these lies?
That is false. Some of these activities have been proven in court and some of this has been submitted as evidence in court. It has risen to evidentiary standards. For example, last October, the US Justice Department revealed in an unsealed indictment that a Canadian in Vancouver had been coerced by PRC agents to go back to the PRC. We have plenty of evidence that PRC has engaged in this activity on a broad level. The high-profile unlawful detentions of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor are just some of the literally hundreds of examples of PRC oppression in Canada and abroad.
Why did the US Congress want to hear from you and what was the takeaway?
They are interested in understanding what kind of PRC repression is taking place in other allied democracies and I think they are interested in what solutions are being used abroad to counter these threats. We talked at length about threats on university campuses. The PRC has been targeting universities across democracies and has used tactics such as coaching Chinese international students into threatening and coercing other students who are advocating for Tibet, human rights in Hong Kong or for the Uyghurs.
We also talked about how to insulate universities from intellectual property theft that is taking place at universities in sensitive areas of research.
How does this impact US/Canada relations with China?
I think that Canada-PRC relations are broad and multi-faceted. We have some CAD$100 billion in two-way trade with China and the US has a commensurate amount of two-way trade [Editor's note: it is closer to $700 billion], so obliviously we are going to have to engage with the PRC, but we should do so by being clear with PRC officials of what is acceptable and what is not, and be clear that we will stand up for our interests and in defense of the security of our citizens when they interfere with our democracy.
Do you now feel you or your family in Hong Kong are under threat from the PRC?
I feel emboldened. The targeting of me has convinced me that what I and other outspoken critics are doing is effective. I don’t think they would be targeting us in this way if it wasn’t effective. I feel emboldened to speak up, to give voice to the voiceless and defend Canadian sovereignty.
What is at stake here is what CSIS, our national security intelligence service has told us, is our very democracy. CSIS has said this is a serious national security threat, they said explicitly it threatens our economy, long term prosperity, social cohesion, our Parliament and elections. That is not a small thing. So, I think it is important to continue to educate Canadians about this threat and to stand up and make it clear to the PRC that we will not be cowed and that we will stand with other allied democracies and defend ourselves.
You were critical of the Canadian government's actions on this file for a long time and thought they were asleep at the switch. Has the Canadian and US posture on this changed? And with both a US election coming up and possibly a Canadian one soon, is this situation now more urgent?
I think the Canadian government has been slowly coming to react to this threat. They recently announced an independent public inquiry, something that we long called for. This past spring, they announced that they would introduce a foreign agents registry at some point, something we had called for over three years.
But people will understand that I am a little skeptical. Because at each and every step along the way they have only done something in reaction to the public outcry and pressure that we have brought to bear, so I will wait to see if they continue to step up to meet this threat.
I think the next election is particularly important. In the last election there was evidence that CCP accounts were spreading disinformation about a [Conservative candidate] colleague of mine who was running for reelection. So, what happens in the next election -- what measures the government puts in place to inform Canadians about intelligence that is pointing to PRC disinformation operations -- is something I will be looking for.
Interview conducted by Evan Solomon.
MP Michael Chong speaks during a news conference to announce he is running for the leadership of the Conservative Party in Ottawa, Canada.
Canada and China’s choreographed tit for tat
Ottawa’s relationship with Beijing already resembled a broken vase, but on Tuesday, more pieces shattered when China expelled Canadian diplomat Jennifer Lynn Lalonde from Shanghai. The move came in response to Canada’s expulsion on Monday of Chinese diplomat Zhao Wei for his alleged role in threatening Conservative MP Michael Chong and his family.
The story of the threats to a sitting MP’s family was broken by The Globe and Mail, and it forced the Canadian government to come clean on what they knew and when, and how they were going to respond. Chong, a long-time critic of Beijing on issues like the Uyghurs and repression in places like Hong Kong, demanded that Ottawa immediately expel the Chinese diplomat.
But it took more than a week for the government to act. What took so long? Why did Canada’s Foreign Minister Melanie Joly absorb so much flak for not expelling Zhao immediately?
Turns out, this may have been a diplomatic fight that was as choreographed as a WWE wrestling match. The first clue came when Prime Minister Justin Trudeau responded to the criticism last week by noting that the decision was being taken “very, very carefully.” Translation: We’re going to backchannel with the Chinese to limit the damage.
“The time the Canadians took to make a decision and the speed of China’s response points to behind-the-scenes coordination,” says Eurasia Group Vice Chairman Gerald Butts, Trudeau’s former principal secretary. “It looks like both sides are taking a no-surprises approach for now.”
Public diplomatic fights with backroom deals to save face on both sides? This is likely how much of the West is dealing with the wolf-warrior diplomacy of China, with the US playing a strong role in all the interactions. After all, tensions between China and the US are also on the rise and could influence Canada’s diplomatic decisions.
“Canada doesn’t have a lot of options,” says Butts. “Geography still matters. The Canadians will ultimately side with the United States in a geopolitical conflict of this magnitude.”