Transcript: Palestinian UN Ambassador on Trump's radical Gaza plan and the Israel-Hamas ceasefire
Ian Bremmer:
Hello and welcome to the GZERO World Podcast. This is where you'll find extended versions of my conversations on public television. I'm Ian Bremmer. And today, as a fragile ceasefire between Israel and Hamas holds, we're talking about Gaza's future. Donald Trump shocked the world by suggesting the United States take over Gaza, turn it into the "Riviera of the Middle East" and relocate the Gazans. Was this naive? Was he just trolling? Or as Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu hinted, could it be onto something? Here's a more basic question. How should we think about where a people live? Poor millennia land has shaped identity, and by the end of the Second World War, two-thirds of Europe's Jews had been murdered, millions more uprooted from their homes.
Israel's founders sought to create a nation that could not only serve as a refuge, but put Jewish identity literally on the map. Palestinians too have a history of displacement. The 1948 Israel Arab War forced 750,000 Palestinians, 80% of their population to flee their homes, tripling Gaza's population. Today, Trump has one answer for where displaced Gazans should go. Thousands who marched up the Gaza Strip to return to their leveled neighborhoods, they have another. So who gets to decide? Joining me is someone with a direct stake in that answer. Palestinian Ambassador to the United Nations, Riyad Mansour. I spoke with Mansour on Monday, February 10th, and events have continued to rapidly unfold since. Let's get to it. Ambassador Riyad Mansour, it's nice to have you back on the show.
Riyad Mansour:
Thank you very much for having me.
Ian Bremmer:
There's a lot to talk about. But of course, most recently, some good news is that after a lot of announcements and a lot of disappointment, there is actually a ceasefire holding, it seems, between Israel and Hamas in Gaza. How significant is that move?
Riyad Mansour:
It is very significant because the international community and the Palestinian people, and their leadership have been trying for 15 months to put an end to the fighting in Gaza to save lives and to implement all other provisions of the agreement. Now, the ceasefire seems fragile, but we need it to be holding and to be permanent, and to implement all steps of the three stages of the agreement, which was-
Ian Bremmer:
We're in phase one right now.
Riyad Mansour:
We're in phase one, and also we need the ceasefire to extend to the West Bank. It doesn't make sense that you want to save lives in Gaza, but kill lives in the West Bank, particularly in the northern part of the West Bank. So we need the ceasefire to cover all the components of the land of the State of Palestine and to be permanent.
Ian Bremmer:
Now, the components of the initial agreement here, we have hostages that are being released by Hamas. We have prisoners that are being released by the State of Israel. We have humanitarian aid that is coming into Gaza at a much more significant clip than it had been. From your perspective, I mean, again, I know there've been hiccups as you've described them, but would you say that all pieces of that agreement are generally being implemented right now?
Riyad Mansour:
In the first stage, there are three important steps. Ceasefire is one of them and to hold, and also the exchange of hostages and prisoners, and it is taking place, although sometimes there's delays for few hours or longer in meeting the details of that agreement on the exchange of hostages and prisoners. Then we have the element of having humanitarian assistance to scale a minimum of 600-
Ian Bremmer:
Trucks a day.
Riyad Mansour:
... truckloads a day, including 50 truckloads of fuel to be able to run the generators for the hospitals, for cleaning the water and for other essentials of life. Now, that during the first week, week and a half, we've seen large number of truckloads entering the Gaza and distributing the humanitarian assistance. The number of truckloads now is dwindling down for several reasons. One of the reasons is, in addition to food, you need equipment, you need generators, you need equipment to clean the rubbles.
So then the needs would require not just only food and water, and medicine, but you need also other elements, including of course, tents, temporary housing shelters for people to be able to sustain protective dwellings, especially because of the winter weather. Then the Israeli forces to start withdrawing from the midsection of Gaza, Wadi Gaza area, closer to the borders between Israel and the Gaza Strip, and to allow civilians to return to the North. And in fact more than 400,000, maybe 450,000 walking along the Mediterranean road, they went back to the northern part of Gaza. But for them, they went back to ruins. You need to clean the areas around where they will set up temporary shelters to live and also to allow them to receive basic humanitarian assistance so that they can live in these areas while they start the process of maybe fixing the schools so the kids can go back to schools, and fixing the hospitals and cleaning the roads. There's a lot of things that need to be done.
Now, all these things, there were hiccups because the Israelis did not withdraw completely in that corridor. They went few kilometers to the midsection to Salah al-Din main road. They were supposed to move further closer to the borders. My understanding, they just begun to move further east. And they started the discussions they were supposed to start on day 16. The negotiation on the elements for the implementation of stage two. There was hiccup there. Prime Minister Netanyahu did not send his team to Doha when he came to Washington, D.C. And then when he returned, he sent the team maybe of a different kind of team than the previous teams, and they're supposed to start the discussion on the details of the second stage.
Ian Bremmer:
Now, the second stage is something that the Trump administration wants to see happen. The international community certainly wants to see it happen. Do you believe the preconditions exist right now both on the Israeli side and on Hamas to make the second stage a reality? Because I mean, we hear lots of reasons why fighting might restart.
Riyad Mansour:
Well, there are elements within the government of Prime Minister Netanyahu. One resigned, a minister being there because he objected to the agreement. Another one stayed in the agreement-
Ian Bremmer:
Smotrich.
Riyad Mansour:
... Smotrich, but he put the condition that just after completing the first aid to go back to fighting. So we don't know how these things would-
Ian Bremmer:
These are the two far-right members of the coalition.
Riyad Mansour:
Yes. But Smotrich is threatening that he could collapse the government if they don't go back to fighting. So these are elements in the process from the Israeli side and also that there is this intensification of attacks in the northern part of the West Bank in Jenin, in the refugee camp, in the city, in Tulkarm, in the refugee camp in the city and in other places. And the settlers are also engaged with the attacks against Palestinian farmers and some of the towns that are very close to settlements in the West Bank so that there is the element of trying to make the situation in the West Bank destabilized, and to try to entertain the dreams of the extremists who want to replicate of what they did in Gaza to see it happening in the West Bank.
Ian Bremmer:
It's your view that Hamas is fully interested in moving into the second phase of implementation of the ceasefire?
Riyad Mansour:
I think that at the Hamas side and the Netanyahu side, although you see difficulties and hiccups, but the regional forces, Qatar, Egypt, and Arab countries, including the leadership of the State of Palestine, they want the ceasefire to hold, the ceasefire to be permanent, to spread to all parts of the land of the State of Palestine, and they want to see the full implementation of all stages. You add to that, there is a main trust in the Trump administration. They want to see the ceasefire to hold and the agreement to be honored, particularly they say in the media that they want the release of all of the hostages, which means it has requirements in terms of the details of the agreement.
Ian Bremmer:
Now, I'm going to ask you about President Trump's most recent statements. But before I do, I want to stick on the ceasefire for a second because, of course, Biden had been pushing, pushing, pushing for a ceasefire for quite some time. It did not happen. Trump becomes president, suddenly we do get one. He certainly seems to be more willing to use his personal leverage against both the Israelis and the Palestinians to make a ceasefire happen. Is that a fair characterization? Does he have more influence over the Israeli prime minister? Does he have more influence over Hamas because of his strong will on these issues?
Riyad Mansour:
I think that the dynamic is complicated. It's not just only more power or less power. But let me just say before I add more to this issue. Had we had the ceasefire and Resolution 2735, which contains all of the three stages elements, which became the agreement on the 19th of January, a day before the inauguration of President Trump, had we had it implemented, we would've saved more than 10,000 lives of Palestinians. But be that as it may, we have the ceasefire. Now, the dynamics is that Netanyahu traditionally from the time of President Barack Obama was hostile to the Democrats.
Ian Bremmer:
Yes.
Riyad Mansour:
He extended this philosophy during the time of President Biden-
Ian Bremmer:
Biden.
Riyad Mansour:
... every now and then, and he wanted to have, and he was closer-
Ian Bremmer:
Even though Biden was clearly a very strong supporter of Israel.
Riyad Mansour:
Of course, of course. But I'm just telling you the dynamics from the perspective of Prime Minister Netanyahu and the other extremists in his government, that they liked the Republicans more, and they wanted to appear that they are synchronizing some of their positions with President Trump. And President Trump in the campaign, he said, "If I was, had I been the president before, that this war would not have taken place. And I will have the fighting stopping before I take over." And in fact, the agreement was announced on the 19th, a day before his inauguration. So from the perspective of Netanyahu and the dynamics of the leaders in Israel that they want to be in good terms with President Trump. And often they used to say, if you remember months before that, that they claimed that they accomplished all of their military objectives, so there is no sense in continuing the war. But in the same time, they wanted to show President Trump that he was able to succeed-
Ian Bremmer:
To accomplish something.
Riyad Mansour:
... to accomplish something just before taking over.
Ian Bremmer:
So let's talk about-
Riyad Mansour:
These are all part of the dynamics that is unfolding with administration that is taking over in Washington, D.C.
Ian Bremmer:
So let's talk about the most recent statements where, of course, Prime Minister Netanyahu comes to the United States, he meets with President Trump, and Trump announces that the United States is going to take over Gaza, that the Palestinians need to be resettled, and that this is the only way that you can rebuild this territory. It is not a policy that has been supported by America's allies in the region other than Israel, the Egyptians, the Jordanians, the Saudis, the Qataris, the Emiratis have all come out and said, "We don't support this." Were you surprised to hear that policy from Trump?
Riyad Mansour:
I think that a lot of people were surprised because also it violates the provisions of the agreement that was that the-
Ian Bremmer:
Ceasefire agreement?
Riyad Mansour:
Yes.
Ian Bremmer:
Yes.
Riyad Mansour:
Because in one-
Ian Bremmer:
It's not the third phase. Exactly, yeah.
Riyad Mansour:
Not even the first phase, I mean third phase. But in the first phase also that they were supposed to allow people to return to the North and to provide them with shelters. The same language that was used in Resolution 2735. So if you allow them to return and you negotiate the return as part of the agreement, and you pride yourself as being, to take the credit for making that agreement, that provision in that agreement, if you had that position, then maybe you would've not accepted that the Israelis to withdraw from the midsection of Gaza, Wadi Gaza, to allow the people to return. And in fact, they returned.
Ian Bremmer:
Trump has said-
Riyad Mansour:
Therefore-
Ian Bremmer:
... Trump has said a lot of things, but one of the things he has, and he is not always been consistent in the announcements he's made on this, but one thing he has said is that Palestinians won't be forcibly removed, but they should be allowed to leave if they wish. Are you of the view that Palestinians should be allowed to leave Gaza if they wish?
Riyad Mansour:
I think that there were two answers to this assertion. One, the 450,000 who walked-
Ian Bremmer:
Up to the north.
Riyad Mansour:
... up to the north, old and young, including in some cases very old, that they were carried by their grandchildren in their shoulders to take them back, knowing that they're going back to ruins. Then their choice was is to go back to the areas where they lived for a long period of time. And this is something that maybe some people might not fully understand about the connection between the Palestinians and the land of Palestine. We have very, very strong attachment to the land, whether you have a palace on it or whether it is destroyed, and we are resilient that we have the capability of rebuilding, fixing and so on and so forth. So that's in terms of the Palestinian people, the hundreds of thousands, they made that choice.
Ian Bremmer:
But there are 2.2 million people in Gaza. So of those that might want to leave, and surely there are some that want to leave, should they be allowed to?
Riyad Mansour:
But you see also that, to say that you'd like to leave, those who had some money, they were able to pay to agencies during the course of the 15 months and they left and went to Egypt. But those who do not have money, then there is the complications. Egypt or Jordan or any country, you cannot just simply say that, choose the country where you want to go and the countries would facilitate to you where to go. And what is really bizarre about this kind of logic, which of course, the position of Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Egypt, just to name a few on the State of Palestine, they're opposing displacement and forced displacement even if you cover it with some sugar to make it attractive, if you want to freely to leave, you can leave.
You are creating problems for countries, especially these countries that you are specifying that you want to send them to them. And what is really bizarre about this thing, you are loading planes and sending illegal immigrants to El Salvador and to Colombia, and to other countries. And you are saying they are security threat to the United States. Shouldn't you be also concerned about security threat for Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia?
Ian Bremmer:
They are, of course, there are no Palestinians going to El Salvador. So you were talking about a-
Riyad Mansour:
But we are-
Ian Bremmer:
It's a different issue-
Riyad Mansour:
... but we are willing to go back to Israel.
Ian Bremmer:
I understand that.
Riyad Mansour:
Send us back to the places where we became refugees in the first place.
Ian Bremmer:
My question here is that I assume that as you said, there are some that were able to pay their way to get into Egypt. There are others that have not. They've had no ability to go. I'm not suggesting that you like the policy. I'm simply suggesting that I could understand why Palestinians who would want to leave Gaza, given that Gaza is a war zone, that Gaza has been destroyed over the course of the last 15 months.
Riyad Mansour:
Yeah. But those who left, they have the right to return. They did not leave-
Ian Bremmer:
I understand.
Riyad Mansour:
... to abandon it.
Ian Bremmer:
And certainly during the war in Syria, many countries across the region and more broadly welcomed large numbers of Syrian refugees. And yet it appears that that same logic does not apply to the Palestinians. That there doesn't seem to be a lot of money meets your mouth when you ask the countries in the region what they're actually willing to do.
Riyad Mansour:
But you see, there are several things that you are omitting in this picture. First of all, we have to honor and respect the wishes of the Palestinian people. If the Palestinian people are lining up and saying, "Find us a place to go," then you can deal with that. Secondly, President Trump, he's saying that, "I want to control Gaza. It is going to be mine and I'm going to build things in it," and there is no guarantee that anyone will come back. You have to look at the whole package. If Palestinians who are so much attached to their land, they need to be in temporary places until we rebuild the areas where they're there. Fine. We have many places in Gaza where we can have temporary shelters. In fact, in the plan of Prime Minister Mohammad Mustafa, he is seeking to have 200,000 of prefabricated temporary housing where we can have an area-
Ian Bremmer:
In Gaza?
Riyad Mansour:
In Gaza. So where people can live there instead of tents as in the Al Mawasi where the Israelis send them to the south, a very miserable, disgusting area. But there were hundreds of thousands of tents for people to be there temporarily until Israel told them that you can return. And in fact that they return to the North and we know what the situation looks like. So there are plans. These are practical plans. Egypt has its own problems. They don't want to have the problem of a million or a million and a half Palestinians in the Sinai nor any other country. And the wishes of the Palestinian people, they want to be in their countries. In fact, the dream of many generations, the old ones and their offsprings that they dream of returning to the areas where they were expelled from when Israel became Israel in 1948.
Ian Bremmer:
Do you think that Gaza is going to be taken away? I saw a poll recently that 80% of Israelis, it's in The Jerusalem Post, so center newspaper politically, said that they thought that all Palestinians should be removed from Gaza. President Trump certainly, who is by far the most important ally, the strongest ally of Israel in the world, seems to be supporting that policy. Do you believe that that is the intent?
Riyad Mansour:
But you see, this policy is rooted in this idea that is causing the perpetuation of this conflict. That idea is between the sea and the river. Only Jews have the right to self-determination, which means from the Balfour Declaration time, even the Palestinians were not referred to. It's a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and civil and religious rights for others. They did not even say that we existed as Palestinian people. So therefore, to expel from Gaza, to be followed by expulsion from the West Bank and East Jerusalem, then therefore you accomplish the dream that the Zionist movement has been working for all along. That the Jews are people without land, and Palestine is a land without people. So that's all these assumptions, and all these fears are in the DNA of the Palestinian people. So they will not leave even destroyed Gaza because they want to keep holding into Palestine and what it means to all of us, the Palestinian people.
Ian Bremmer:
And you think that is true of the majority of the Palestinian people that are living in Gaza right now?
Riyad Mansour:
Yes.
Ian Bremmer:
Yes. But again, my question is not whether you think it's just. My question, I quite understand that you don't agree with the policy. I'm asking do you think that's the intention? Do you think that's what the Israelis are trying to do? Do you think that's what Trump is trying to accomplish?
Riyad Mansour:
No, I'm telling you that they legislated in the Knesset in the year 2018. They legislated in the Knesset a piece of legislating by 99 votes out of the 120, that only Jews between the river and the sea have the right self-determination.
Ian Bremmer:
But the United States has supported a two-state solution until very recently, and now President Trump-
Riyad Mansour:
I'm not sure-
Ian Bremmer:
... appears to be saying, appears to now be saying that the time for a two-state solution has passed. The Abraham Accords were enshrined in the idea that the Palestinians would get a state, that was part of the assumption. The Saudis have said many times that they're prepared to join if that state is made manifest.
Riyad Mansour:
That is true.
Ian Bremmer:
That no longer appears to be the position of the United States.
Riyad Mansour:
That is true. When President Trump was asked the question about the two-state solution, he did not say yes. He did not say no. He said he's interested in peace, so we don't know exactly what he has in mind. So we have to wait and see what his pronouncement will be. But for the Palestinian people, for the international community, including the United States, until the departing administration of President Biden, that there is a global consensus on the two-state solution.
Ian Bremmer:
Do you think after more than a year of war now, that Palestinians and Gaza are more open to governance and leadership that doesn't include Hamas?
Riyad Mansour:
These are complicated issues, and I believe that once this ceasefire to hold, once we start putting some of the basic elements of life of people in the Gaza Strip to start building the schools, the hospital, the basic necessities, then we have to engage in all these issues related to governance and the political future of the horizon that we say the political horizon in which this illegal occupation characterized by the International Court of Justice, that it has to end and end as quickly as possible. The General Assembly said one year.
Now, if we start moving in a practical way with practical steps to allow this path to be implemented, then the political discussion among the Palestinians will intensify as to their future governance. But now they are very, very busy with the ceasefire to make it permanent with the provisions of the agreement to stop the aggression against the Palestinians in the West Bank, to quiet the situation in the West Bank, to deal with the complicated issues that we are facing related to the day-to-day life of the Palestinian people in the occupied territory, West Bank, East Jerusalem, as well as in the Gaza Strip before we start jumping the gun and dealing with issues that require a lot of time.
Ian Bremmer:
Do you think that Hamas today has legitimacy in the eyes of the Palestinian people?
Riyad Mansour:
Well, does Ben Gvir and Smotrich have legitimacy although they were with in the court?
Ian Bremmer:
Yes. Among some and not among others. I mean, certainly you're talking about as war criminals. Yes, Hamas was also dealt with as a war criminal organization.
Riyad Mansour:
It's all these things that political groups, whether inside Israel or in our country, or in the United States of America, I'm referring to the KKK and others. Those do exist in these societies, and the societies themselves then they need to deal with these phenomenas and to see whether they exist in these societies with restrictions or whether they don't.
Ian Bremmer:
I appreciate-
Riyad Mansour:
We are like all these other societies.
Ian Bremmer:
... I appreciate your willingness to analogize Hamas with individuals and organizations that are seen as war criminals. I appreciate that. I'm simply-
Riyad Mansour:
I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that we have the complexity in our situation as in other places, and they're characterized as they are characterized. I am aware of how the US government look at Hamas, and I'm also aware of some European countries, how they look at them. And I'm aware also of how Arab and Muslim countries that they might disagree with them, but they don't agree with the labeling aspect as in other countries. That's part of the reality.
Ian Bremmer:
I can understand how people living through a war and living in a war zone are going to have a very different perspective than you and I sitting here comfortably in New York City.
Riyad Mansour:
That is true.
Ian Bremmer:
So my question to you, again, you said it's too early because we can't figure out what kind of governance there's going to be because we have to go through this process. I'm asking you about the Palestinians today, and I'm saying, do you believe that the Palestinians today believe that Hamas has political legitimacy?
Riyad Mansour:
For the Palestinians that is not the issue that they are occupying themselves with. Maybe that might be the issue for you and other intellectuals, and whoever living far away like in the United States of America. For us, we are fixated and putting an end to this war to save lives, to put the life of people back together, to stop this fighting in the northern part of the West Bank, to send humanitarian assistance to the people in the Gaza Strip, to provide them with shelters. And also we are fully convinced that we need to have a political horizon. We need not to go back to the situation that existed on October 6th. We need to find ways that the global consensus on the two-state solution is what will open the door for peace. We need to open the door for peace.
Ian Bremmer:
Do you think we are closer, practically speaking today, to a two-state solution than we were on October 6th?
Riyad Mansour:
I don't know, but often in our culture we say it gets so dark early in the morning before we see the sunlight, and I hope that that would be the case in our situation.
Ian Bremmer:
One other interesting question. So China quickly condemned Trump not to use Gaza as a bargaining chip. I'm wondering to what extent you welcome Chinese investment and Chinese support for the creation of a Palestinian state.
Riyad Mansour:
While we have good relationship with China, and they are partnered with us to help us to build a future Palestinian state once we put an end to this illegal occupation and start the process of building all components of a free, independent State of Palestine.
Ian Bremmer:
If the US no longer supports a two-state solution, is China a viable alternative to lead that process?
Riyad Mansour:
It's not only China. In fact, we are working now in the details with many countries, including the co-chairs, China and non China, France and Saudi Arabia, to convene an international conference in June at the United Nations for the implementation of the two-state solution. And in that process, we are looking at a number of countries and round tables, and preparations for countries who are ready and willing to participate in the help to having the two-state solution to become a reality in all fields, economical field, in all aspects of what it requires to really allow this State of Palestine to become viable and to become closer to the dreams of the Palestinian people.
And there are dozens of countries who are ready and willing to participate in that processes. It's not only the United States, although we'd love to see the United States playing a role in participating in that conference and contributing to the process of allowing the two-state solution to become a reality. One of them exists, the other one is under occupation. We need to put an end to this occupation in order to allow the other one to flourish to the potential of the capability of the Palestinian people.
Ian Bremmer:
Riyad Mansour, thank you very much, sir.
Riyad Mansour:
You're very welcome.
Ian Bremmer:
That's it for today's edition of the GZERO World Podcast. Do you like what you heard? Of course, you do. Why not make it official? Why don't you rate and review GZERO World five stars, only five stars, otherwise don't do it, on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Tell your friends.
