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Thomas P. Susdorf from the film “Gunner Palace."
“In war, everything matters.” An interview with filmmaker Mike Tucker
Twenty years ago today, the US invaded Iraq. Just weeks later, the American filmmaker — and frequent GZERO contributor — Mike Tucker embedded with a group of fresh-faced US troops in Iraq, to make the film “Gunner Palace.”
It was the first great documentary about the war – a gripping, chaotic, and occasionally darkly humorous portrait of what was, basically, a group of kids sent to kill in a country that they knew little about. One of those soldiers, Specialist Thomas P. Susdorf, is pictured above.
“To be a combat veteran is awesome, it’ll be great to look back on,” says one of Susdorf's fellow gunners partway through the film, “I’m just trying to get to the point where I can look back on it.”
That point is now. During the pandemic, Mike and co-director Petra Epperlein crisscrossed the United States, tracking down the Gunner Palace kids to learn how the war has shaped their lives ever since.
The resulting short film, co-produced by the Eurasia Group Foundation and published last week by The New York Times, is called “The Army We Had.”
In it, Tucker and Epperlein cut footage of the idealistic, war-hungry recruits of “Gunner Palace” against interviews with the people they’ve become today: men slouching into middle age, still warped by the traumas and unanswered questions of the war. Who were they fighting? Why were they there? What good did it do?
Mike is currently in Ukraine, but we grabbed a few minutes of his time to ask him about the lessons of “The Army We Had,” the biggest differences between Ukraine and Iraq, and what he thinks most people don’t understand about the experience of war.
His answers have been lightly edited.
Alex Kliment: Mike, congratulations on the new film. Where are you right now and what are you up to?
I’m in Ukraine currently, where we’ve been shooting a project for the last seven months about how a ragtag army of volunteers is getting machines and material to the front lines.
What’s the main lesson that you want people to take away from “The Army We Had?”
It’s crucial that America rethinks how and when it authorizes force. After all the death, suffering, sacrifice, deployments and military spending in Iraq, it’s hard to point to any positive outcomes. Even if it’s difficult, we need to debate and exhaust all other options before we commit to war. You can see that in the faces of the soldiers in the film.
Twenty years after “Gunner Palace,” you’re in the middle of an equally era-defining war in Ukraine. How do the two experiences compare?
The war in Ukraine couldn’t be more different from Iraq. For one thing, rather than filming the aggressor, this time I’m filming people resisting Russian aggression, and I feel it’s essential for people in the West to understand that.
But also, technology has changed everything. The invasion of Iraq was before YouTube. Before social media. Now in Ukraine, combatants are flooding social media with content – with a raw immediacy that dwarfs anything we’ve ever seen — to the point that I think we risk becoming numb to the horror.
You’ve spent a lot of time in and around war, what do you think the general public understands least well about the experience?
Well as for Ukraine right now, what people aren’t seeing on the news is the psychological impact on Ukrainian civilians. Air alarms ring out around Kyiv 2-3 times a day. Worst of all, it all feels normal, when it’s anything but.
But to paraphrase [American journalist] Chris Hedges, “war gives us meaning.” I like to think of the “Gunner Palace” year as both the best and worst year of those soldiers’ lives, and I think many of them would agree. They’ll never feel that close to other people ever again. And for many of them, regardless of the problems with the mission itself, some will never feel such purpose again. In war — around war — everything matters.
You can (and should!) watch the film “The Army We Had” here.
The cost of war: Senator Tammy Duckworth on what we owe veterans
The true cost of war is a lot more than tanks, helicopters, and ammunition, according to US Senator Tammy Duckworth (D-IL), who joins GZERO World to reflect on the 20th anniversary of the US-led invasion of Iraq. Duckworth was a helicopter pilot who lost both her legs in Iraq, one of thousands of veterans who returned home wounded, and intimately understands that the costs of war go far beyond the conflict ending.
Is the United States fulfilling its obligation to provide adequate services for its veterans? In a conversation with Ian Bremmer, Duckworth emphasizes “the obligation we have to our veterans” to live up to the promises we made to them. The United States made a deal with its veterans, she says, “to honor their service and sacrifices,” and it is “non-negotiable to break that promise.” Otherwise, how can we expect people to volunteer to serve?
Duckworth stresses that honoring veterans is not only the honorable thing to do, but also a military necessity.
Watch the GZERO World episode: Iraq War's legacy: Loss of lives, rise of ISIS, & political turmoil
- The Graphic Truth: The cost of America's post-9/11 wars ›
- When a giant sneezes: How the US response to 9/11 reshaped the world ›
- Who was General Qassim Suleimani? ›
- Former top US official regrets Iraq becoming 'magnet' for terrorism ›
- Iraq War's legacy: Loss of lives, rise of ISIS, & political turmoil - GZERO Media ›
- 20 years since the Iraq War: Lessons learned, questions raised | Ian Bremmer explains - GZERO Media ›
- Senator Tammy Duckworth discusses unfinished business in Iraq & the true cost of war - GZERO Media ›
- Iraq then and now: Reflections from NBC's Richard Engel - GZERO Media ›
- Richard Engel on Iraq, Ukraine, and the danger of 'wars of choice' - GZERO Media ›
- From combat pilot to Senator: Tammy Duckworth's reflections on the Iraq War - GZERO Media ›
- From Iraq to Ukraine: Reflections on "wars of choice" - GZERO Media ›