Search
AI-powered search, human-powered content.
scroll to top arrow or icon

Wolfgang Ischinger: Ukraine made German foreign policy go "out the window"

For Wolfgang Ischinger, former chair of the Munich Security Conference, the state of transatlantic relations is in good shape right now, although whether we'll have the stamina to stay on course is uncertain. In a Global Stage interview with Ian Bremmer, he seems more worried about American war fatigue than the Europeans — although the EU has Viktor Orbán and it's hard for Germany to cut off Russian gas. One lesson Ischinger has learned from the current crisis is that Europe must have America's back on China, especially with Taiwan. And he calls German Chancellor Olaf Scholz's recent foreign policy U-turns as "going out the window."


Ian Bremmer: With my friend Wolfgang Ischinger here at the World Economic Forum in Davos. Wolfgang, so state of transatlantic relations today, from the Davos perspective, what do you think?

Wolfgang Ischinger: Good shape. Better than at any time in recent memory. If we had had a Davos a year ago, we would've been talking about the debacle of Afghanistan, et cetera. We're in good shape now. NATO is essentially on track, the European Union has surprisingly not fallen apart. I think my only concern is if it is correct to assume that this war in Ukraine will drag on for not weeks but months, are we going to be in good shape three, six, nine months down the road? That's my concern. Are we going to have the stamina to stay on course?

Ian Bremmer: Now, question; to the extent that war fatigue is starting to set in over time, and again, I think most people presume this is not ending any time soon.

Wolfgang Ischinger: Exactly.

Ian Bremmer: Does it come first from the Europeans or from the Americans? And why?

Wolfgang Ischinger: Well, let's talk about America for a moment. You guys have elections coming up, midterm elections, and I'm not so certain that the average American voter is going to like the idea of paying higher gas prices and spending more money on foreign expeditions, etc., etc. So I'm worried a little bit about the American commitment longer term. In Europe, I think at the moment we're in good shape, but of course we have these outliers. We have Viktor Orbán.

Ian Bremmer: Hungary.

Wolfgang Ischinger: We have Hungary, and we have a couple of other partners that have specific interests. Germany has its own problem with gas. I wish I could say in six weeks or in 12 weeks, we're going to be able to cut gas imports from Russia. It's hard to do. It's hard to do, and I feel sorry for those in my own government who have to respond to this urgent question from our Ukrainian partners. When are you going to stop financing the Russian war of aggression by continuing to buy this stuff? But then again, it's not going to help if Germany cuts gas imports now. With the obvious, obvious consequence of a significant recession, then of course the commitment by the German wider public for our Ukrainian determination will surely shrink. And whose interest would we serve with that? So this is really a dilemma.

Ian Bremmer: And the Americans and the Europeans have had diversion perspectives for a while on Russia that are now aligning. They've also had some diversion perspectives on China for a while.

Wolfgang Ischinger: Yes. Yeah.

Ian Bremmer: Are they now aligning?

Wolfgang Ischinger: I think there's one lesson we are learning, we Europeans. We cannot ignore that the US is looking at a huge problem, potential problem with China, with the Taiwan issue, etc. And we cannot possibly leave the United States alone in that. In other words, we need to understand that even though this is many thousands of miles away, it is in our interest to get involved. Maybe not militarily, we don't have the capacities militarily, but certainly politically, and we need much closer coordination between Washington, and Brussels, and Berlin and Paris on China.

Ian Bremmer: And Olaf Scholz so far, when you saw that initial speech he gave, the turning point speech he gave, did it reflect for you a new strategic vision for Germany? Is this a new generation for Germany in politics or is it more modest than that?

Wolfgang Ischinger: No. It was a major decision. Look, essential elements of established German foreign policy went up the chimney.

Ian Bremmer: We'd say out the window.

Wolfgang Ischinger: Out the window.

Ian Bremmer: But that sounds more definitive, if it's up the chimney.

Wolfgang Ischinger: Out the window. The idea which about which we had been preaching for many years, the future partnership with Russia; out the window, no longer possible. The idea of a security order for all of Europe, with Russia included; out the window. In other words for no country has this Russian attack against Ukraine produced more sharp cuts and the need for total revision of our foreign policy. The problem for Olaf Scholz is not that he gave the wrong speech. The problem for him is that it's not so clear that all of his followers in his own party agree with his speech-

Ian Bremmer: Social democrats.

Wolfgang Ischinger: And with the consequences of spending a hundred billion extra on defense, and on meeting the 2% defense goal going forward, etc. So, he has to fight this internal political fight, not against the opposition, which supports him, but against his own party.

Ian Bremmer: The Americans have been saying for a long time, how come the Europeans aren't sacrificing the Germans? The Europeans are sacrificing more this time around. There's no question.

Wolfgang Ischinger: Yes. Absolutely.

More from Global Stage

Can we use AI to secure the world's digital future?

How do we ensure AI is safe, available to everyone, and enhancing productivity? It’s a big topic at this year’s UN General Assembly. That’s why GZERO’s Global Stage livestream brought together leading experts at the heart of the action for “Live from the United Nations: Securing our Digital Future,” an event produced in partnership between the Complex Risk Analytics Fund, or CRAF’d, and GZERO Media’s Global Stage series, sponsored by Microsoft.

Is the Europe-US rift leaving us all vulnerable?

As the tense and politically charged 2025 Munich Security Conference draws to a close, GZERO’s Global Stage series presents a conversation about strained relationships between the US and Europe, Ukraine's path ahead, and rising threats in cyberspace.

AI for Good depends on global cooperation, says ITU's Doreen Bogdan-Martin

Doreen Bogdan-Martin, Secretary-General of the ITU, discusses the urgent global challenge of the widening digital divide in AI access and policy at the 2025 AI for Good Summit, in an exclusive Global Stage interview with GZERO's Tony Maciulis.

AI innovations that tackle the global refugee crisis

“Tech is a means to an end, not the end itself,” says Hovig Etyemezian, head of UNHCR’s Innovation Service. Speaking to GZERO's Tony Maciulis at the 2025 AI for Good Summit in Geneva, Etyemezian explains how technology is helping address one of the world’s most urgent challenges: the record number of forcibly displaced people. As conflicts rise and resources shrink, UNHCR is using data, AI, and digital tools to improve services and empower refugee communities, but only when designed with those communities, not for them.

Europe’s AI Act: World’s first guardrails or just a flashy head start?

“We wanted to be first with a flashy AI law,” says Kai Zenner, digital policy advisor in the European Parliament. Speaking with GZERO's Tony Maciulis at the 2025 AI for Good Summit in Geneva, Zenner explains the ambitions and the complications behind Europe’s landmark AI Act. Designed to create horizontal rules for all AI systems, the legislation aims to set global standards for safety, transparency, and oversight.

How AI for Good is tackling the digital divide

Frederic Werner discusses the importance of AI for global impact at the 2025 AI for Good Summit in Geneva, in an exclusive Global Stage interview with GZERO's Tony Maciulis. They discuss the future of AI and its role in solving humanity's challenges, from harnessing quantum computing to closing the digital divide.